Supposed S&L made 1957 Knights Crosses sold from Australia

[jbmilitaryantiq]

Dear Forum members,

I have recently commented on the sale of supposedly original Steinhauer & Luck made 1957 awards from one seller on ebay called elitemilitaria. I noted that a forum member even produced paperwork from this pertaining to elitemilitaria's claim that all the items he sells are originals which are made currently by the german company. Upon seeing this paperwork I was immediately suspicious.

After giving my two cents worth, I figured I would contact the company via email and letter. (I did visit S&L late last year and they had no knoweldge of any such pieces). This evening, I received an email reply from the company. I will of course post a hard copy when it arrives in the mail. I propose that this settle the matter that what elitemilitaria sells, pertaining to current S&L made pieces is in fact a total fabrication.


Here it is:




Dear Mr. Blewitt,

Thank you very much for your last week's question about delivery of different items from second world war. We think, that you are especially interest in the Iron cross and the Knights cross.

Unfortunately , the factory who did the soldering work for this items for us does not exist any longer for many years and until yet, we don't find somebody, who can prepare this work in the quality which is needed for this decorations. Because of this, we are unable at the moment to support our Customers with this decorations.

Sorry, that we cannot give you better News and I would suggest, to get in touch with you again, if we find a solution for our soldering problem.

Best regards

Simone Blechen



Steinhauer & Lück GmbH & CO. KG
Geschäftsleitung: Simone Blechen, Axel Dornbach
Firmensitz: Lüdenscheid Amtsgericht Iserlohn HRA 2890
EG-Ident.-Nr: DE 125 805 459 St. Nr. 332/5780/0057

Anschrift: Hochstraße 47-51 * 58511 Lüdenscheid
Tel: 02351 / 10620 * Fax: 02351 / 106250
eMail: blechen@steinlueck.de * Internet: http://www.steinlueck.de

[jonathancol]

I have seen 2 pieces in hand that they sold (to someone I know) as made by S&L. Both seemed to be ok and likely made in the 90s/00s. I wouldn't want to spend what they ask (as much as $500) on a late made piece.

[Nigel N]

So, the question is, are the pieces they sell, actually old S&L stock, from maybe the 90's, or are they making, or having made, new pieces in the S&L style???
-Nigel

[Tom C.]

maybe its time to have a little looksie(cover your eyes its going to get ugly)

in the left hand side we see the S&L C pattern magnetic and in the right corner the cough*crap*cough possible S&L Rk see any similarities

[Tom B]

The one shown...S&L

The cross shown is IMO a S&L, but one of the REAl, REAL LATE ones.....NOT worth any where near his asking price. Tom

[Nigel N]

The cross shown is IMO a S&L, but one of the REAl, REAL LATE ones.....NOT worth any where near his asking price. Tom

I'd agree Tom, it does look like a typical very late S&L RK, of the last type they made i think!
Sandblasted frame, core painted after assembly, 800 mark etc
-Nigel

[jbmilitaryantiq]

Elitemilitaria must have bought a thousand of the same S&L original pieces, because he sells using the exact photo, for each ebay listing. More than likely, he is having these manufactured somewhere else. If you check out his lists of 1957's on ebay, it is endless, he has nearly every example of RK, EK and qualification badge.

The S&L letter of authenticity he provides (see post:
4 Attachment(s) S&L made RK's for the "collector Market" by Tom B) to his customers states clearly the RK is a current made piece and that S&L still produce these 1957 medals and don't trade in cheap replicas or copies.

Well, my response from the company as presented here makes that paperwork a fabrication. Either the woman who responded from S&L is lying or elitemilitaria cut and pasted a letter head from S&L and types in that information himself. I guess, if any forum members would like to contact S&L themselves, it's easy, I found them on facebook, sent a message and got a reply. I also sent a registered letter to their offices to get a hard copy.

So, the question is now, what are all those poor ebay customers going to think when they find out about this?

[jonathancol]

In my opinion, the one that I saw in hand was S&L. The paperwork I believe was a purchase order (not a CoA) and looked ok.

I think that it seems that he has a lot of these, but that assumes that these actually sell.

[Nigel N]

All the pieces i've seen this seller claim to be S&L's, have been in my opinion, exactly that, S&L made pieces! They are very late, possibly very recent production, but still S&L!!
The RK for example, uses the S&L late frame, wether you call it a modified "C", or, an altogether new "D", plus the core details, font style etc also match, so i'm pretty sure these come from the original S&L dies, not only that, but the finish on the frame, and the paint on the core, also look to be identical to known late S&L RK's, the "800" mark matches, as does the finishing to the suspension loop!
Theres nothing there that makes me think someone else is producing these.
-Nigel

[Tom B]

Yes S&L pieces

I agree with Nigel 100%, these are very late S&L made crosses. He did have what I beleive to be a S&L with magnetic core, nice silved frame for sale .....BUT with a totaly FAKE set of Oaks & Swords attached. I seen and said enough about this dealer....I just stay away from his sales. Tom

[Mike Yokum]

I've been following the threads concerning this eBay seller with some interest. I've looked at the 16 (not "endless") listing the seller has for 57er pieces and have the following to add.

1. All the listed pieces are indeed made by S&L with the exception of an RK/KvK which the seller claims to be a Juncker made piece. I don't know the maker of the RK/KvK. He offers a COA from "Antikmarkt Münsterland" a known seller of crap items on German eBay. Whether or not this is intentional deception is unknown. The S&L made pieces are all late to very late made items. When exactly they were made is known only by S&L.

2. This statement made by Jamey from a letter supposedly from S&L - "Thank you very much for your last week's question about delivery of different items from second world war. We think, that you are especially interest in the Iron cross and the Knights cross. Unfortunately , the factory who did the soldering work for this items for us does not exist any longer for many years and until yet, we don't find somebody, who can prepare this work in the quality which is needed for this decorations. Because of this, we are unable at the moment to support our Customers with this decorations." - is referring to RK and EK's. The soldering process for these items which must be sandwiched together, is much more difficult than for badges. It can't be assumed that the seller is referring to all S&L made pieces.

3. Though the seller is incorrect in many aspects of his listings, I don't think we can say with 100% certainty that he is guilty of intentional misrepresentation. That's a huge leap, that I'm not yet willing to make. I am in no way defending or endorsing the seller or his methods, but at the same time, I think it unfair to make the sweeping accusations that have been made here. In fact, I intend to invite the seller to participate here in hopes of bringing him or her to a place of knowledge and understanding concerning the items they sell. If they refuse and/or will not accept correction on these matters, then we have a different situation which can be handled thru eBay's policies.

These pieces are not collectible to anyone with a working knowledge of 57er's. A few hours, if that long, here on the WAF and a potential buyer could be greatly enlightened and be saved many hard earned dollars.

Jamey, what is your reason for bringing this info to the WAF? Have you had any contact with the seller trying to bring some resolution to the problem?

[jbmilitaryantiq]

Hi Mike & Forum,

The reason I have brought this to the attention of the forum is simply because I am sick to death of people bringing these pieces into my shop, either trying to offload them because they are not happy with them or asking for me to verify the letters of authenticity. I am a dealer, many of your West Australian members will know me personally, so it is incumbent upon me to raise this here for their benefit and our own. I have dealt with elitemilitaria for several years regarding what he sells and purports to be genuine. The spurious claims that are made are often not backed up with any credible evidence at all. I felt that seeing this letter supplied by elite supposedly from S&L saying the pieces are currently made by them was false and have proven this to be case from the contact I have had with them. I'm all for free trade, but let's make sure it is in fact FAIR trade.

Jamey

[elitemilitaria]

Hi Mike & Forum,

To answer your questions: Mr Jamey Blewitt is a competitor military dealer here in Australia, he was also our staunch competitor on eBay, username jb_militaria, this account and Mr Blewitt are de-registered from trading on eBay for un-fair trading practices.
He is a vindictive, nasty, jealous competitor, who fabricates stories, relentlessly tries to ruin our reputation on forums like this. His past methods of operations have been to enlists friends to join the forum to make up un-true claims, or he himself has taken various identities claiming to be other members, hence we usually steer clear of such sites. Our eBay feedback speaks for itself, over 18,900 total positive feedbacks.

We have been dealing with Steinhauer & Lueck, Germany for over 9 years. To claim we make or produce reproductions of the patented 800. Silver frames S&L Knights Cross is outrages or as he claims in another forum ‘that the Chinese are making them for a few dollars’ is ludicrous to say the least!

The typed letter Mr Blewitt wrote on this forum is not even a hard copy, he typed this letter into the forum, the so called letter only states that S&L currently is not able to supply its customers with 1957 Knights & Iron Crosses at the moment due to the lack of a fine soldering professional for the frames.

Hopefully we are able to attach an original invoice from S&L invoice number 234209 dated 16.03.2011. All three items make up a Knights Cross set costing us 160.70 Euro plus shipping. Due to the fact that silver is constantly increasing, our costs to purchase are also increasing, as the crosses frames are made from 800. Silver and the Oak Leaves from 925. Silver. S&L does seem to have a problem with supply hence once available we purchase quite a few at a time.

We prefer of course to sell early type1 Knights Crosses with Iron Cores and the early type Decorations in general and we are constantly scanning the net, and checking with dealers especially in Germany.

We have also attached the original Letters of Authenticity with the original mailing Envelope and Steinhauer & Lueck company logo, one letter is dated 04.06.2007 and the other 08.05.2012. Another dumb statement by Mr. Blewitt was that we produced the letters ourselves!!!

We will personally make phone contact with Simone Blechen from Steinhauer & Lueck today, as Mr Blewitt (or his friend?) has altered the original Letter and has attached a copy in his friends eBay listings, eBay item numbers 261078886892 and 261078891187, eBay username elitemilitaryitems - on the one hand these two clowns want to ruin our reputation and on the other hand they want to imitate us by registering a very similar username to trade on eBay. A joke in itself!

I thank Mike and some Forum members for confirming that we are selling genuine Steinhauer & Lueck decorations.

We refuse to participate in a slanging match with Mr. Blewitt, the attacks have been ongoing now for over 9 years and we have more important things to occupy our time with than his petty attacks. Life is too short and our priorities do not lie with him.


Regards from the team at
Elite Militaria Pty. Ltd.






<img src="http://i221.photobucket.co...LLetter1.jpg">


<img src="http://i221.photobucket.co...LLetter2.jpg">


<img src="http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd232/elitemilitaria/D19/SLLetter3.jpg">

[Glenn66]

Balls in your court Jamey.

[jbmilitaryantiq]

I welcome elitemilitaria to the forum discussion. However, can I ask some basic questions & raise a couple here:

1. Can we have your name. Elitemilitaria Pty Ltd sounds rather impersonal.

2. Feel free to contact whoever you like at S&L as I have and I welcome their response. I have represented their response to my email here word for word.

3. If you feel like you have the facts on your side elitemilitaria Pty Ltd, why don't you go ahead with any legal action against me? If as you say, I am a 'vindictive, nasty, jealous competitor, who fabricates stories, (and who) relentlessly tries to ruin our reputation', why haven't you sued me by now or taken action to stop my writing about you? I would love to meet you in court and present the facts as I see them and outlined here. I would even bring a picnic basket just to show you my good faith at half time break!

4. I run a successful militaria shop, yes... an actual shop, my own website, sell at trade fairs both in Australia and Asia. I also deal with 'human' customers face to face on a daily basis. Where do you operate?

5. Who are these clowns you refer to? I have taken it upon myself to expose what I have uncovered from some simple fact checking? Is there someone else you would like to mention here? Don't even think of bringing Elvis up....

6. Are you actually accusing me of doctoring a response from S&L as presented here? I would be happy to forward you (elitemilitaria) or any member the actual email I received from them.

7. You say you have perfect feedback. Great stuff. However, why are there 10 feedbacks that have been revised on your account?

8. Where did I say ‘that the Chinese are making them for a few dollars’?

9. The email response from S&L states clearly they no longer make these awards. So, how is it that you can have the same awards for sale on ebay time and time again? Are they breeding?

10. I am glad you don't want to get into a slanging match. Neither do I nor anyone here. We are all here for the love and enjoyment of collecting. However, may I/we at least have a response to the questions I have raised?

Regards

Jamey