KvK2 With Swords

[Nigel N]

Also forgot to mention the weight, another very strange feature of your KVK Mike, its very light!!
Of the two types i showed above, the one with the smaller central disc is 25g, the one with the identical suspension ring, but bigger central disc is 28g, so no match, not even close on weight!!
The only KVK i have that is close is a Souval, and that weighs 20g, but is a different design again!!!
-Nigel

[Mike Yokum]

Also forgot to mention the weight, another very strange feature of your KVK Mike, its very light!!
Of the two types i showed above, the one with the smaller central disc is 25g, the one with the identical suspension ring, but bigger central disc is 28g, so no match, not even close on weight!!
The only KVK i have that is close is a Souval, and that weighs 20g, but is a different design again!!!
-Nigel

Indeed! I checked the weight and zeroed my scale out three times to make sure what I was seeing was correct. There's even a little of the ribbon weight there too! It's sewn on so, I'm not removing it.

[Nigel N]

Thats the lightest 57er KVK2 i've come across Mike, is there anything to suggest why its so light?
The crispness of the detail make it look more like tombak than Souval's zinc type alloy, it does'nt look extra thin either!!!
-Nigel

[Mike Yokum]

Thats the lightest 57er KVK2 i've come across Mike, is there anything to suggest why its so light?
The crispness of the detail make it look more like tombak than Souval's zinc type alloy, it does'nt look extra thin either!!!
-Nigel

No real indication that I can see explaining the light weight!

Here's a thickness measurement taken directly over the numbers. How does this compare with examples in your collection?

Coincidentally, the color of the cross in this photo is probably the best representation of any of the pics I've shown.

[Tom C.]

very interesting cross do you think this might be a k&Q they are said to have produced some 57ers and they did make TR kvks if you look at this thread the colour of the kvk wos looks almost identical to yours the suspension rings the same and so is the sword hilt might be a match
Link: look at the 3rd post
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=kvk+65

best regards
tom

[Nigel N]

Thanks for the measurement Mike.....again very interesting, but again no match!!!
Of the two types i showed above, the one with the small central disc is 5.24mm thick.
The one with identical supension ring but larger central disc is 5.54mm
A standard S&L is 5.12mm
The Souval is 4.32mm
-Nigelicon_wow.gif

[Mike Yokum]

Wow Nigel! Not even CLOSE to ANY of those!

Let's see what the pebbling tells us and try to make some determination from there.

What do you think of Tom's idea of a K&Q? Now THAT would be interesting?

I appreciate the input Tom! You bring fresh ideas to the table!

[Nigel N]

With this KVK, i dont think we can rule anything out!!!
At the moment, its not really close to any other example by any known maker!!
I can only think of two possible explanations right now, either it is by one of the regular 57 makers, using a different die/ different materials???
Or, its by a previously unknown maker, where Tom;s K&Q idea comes in!!!
I dont know if Klein & Quenzer were active at this time?? But there were certainly many wartime makers still in buisness postwar, and not just in Germany either, Austria cant be ruled out when it comes to pieces by unknown makers!!!
-Nigel

[Karsten S]

Hi Mike,

Congrats on a very nice an quite rare KVK.

This is with 100% certainty a W. Deumer 1957 KVK with Sword, and judging by the quality I would also think is is quite early.

It´s twin is actually already posted here, but IMO wrongly as a St&L KVK:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=592819

I have already proven that this is indeed a Deumer

KR

Karsten

[Nigel N]

Hi Karsten!
Thanks for your thoughts on this KVK2, looking at the pebbling, both this KVK and the one i thought was S&L and you thought a Deumer match!
It seems that both came originally from a Deumer wartime die, but there are too many differences IMO to say that both are from the same maker, we have no idea who might have used Deumer's wartime die for starters, but that is anothr argument, for another day!
Going back to comparing Mike's KVK with mine in the link you provided, the finish is different, the thickness is different the weight is different, the suspension ring is different!
All i can say pretty much for sure, is that both came from the same "mother" die that was a wartime leftover, anything beyond that is just guesswork at the moment i think??
I'm sure that with time, more pieces will be found, and eventually we can say exactly who made what and when! You may well be prooved right Karsten, but its a bit too early to be 100% !!!
-Nigel

[Karsten S]

Hi Nigel,

Thanks for you comments. These both match with the Deumer die that was used for wartime KVK2 and The 57er KVK1 without sword that is owned by stijn and that we know is Deumer, so that would be enough prove for me to categories it as Deumer. That someone else should also have used the die parrell to Deumer is a speculation that is possible, but IMO hardly likely, and if so this line of thinking should apply to all wartime and 57er awards that are not maker-marked?

IMO, Difference in finish, weight, thickness, suspension rings, hardware etc. is not a unique feature that can be related to a manufacturer, but is just as much the evolvement we see in any manufacturer that have produced of a period. Just look at the big transformation you see within the same manufacturers from 1936-1945. 57er has been produced from 1957 till the 1980´s, so some sort of changes in finish weight and thickness are to be expected within the manufacturer. This some of the parameters that we use to determine whether an award is very early, early, mid period etc.
As you are aware I am not only comparing the peblings, but also the center disc with the wartime and 57er period Deumer, and these matches up perfect.

Hi Karsten!
It seems that both came originally from a Deumer wartime die, but there are too many differences IMO to say that both are from the same maker.

-Nigel

Nigel,
Could you clarify this a little more specific? maybe put up a compare to see these differences in the dies?

As mentioned earlier, I did not only make a compare with the wartime Deumer die, but also two 57er KVK´s.
Deumer had at least two different wartime dies. one for their KVK1 (no match to the 57er KVK2) and one for their KVK2 (exact match IMO)

One is the classic zinc wartime KVK1 mm3, which has a applied 57er disc. This disc is an exact match to these KVK2 that we are discussing here. Diameters in the disc´s are of course different since the KVK1 was stamped out, where as the KVK2 is integrated in the award, but apart from this an exact match, that does not match with any other makers. I can not find any differences within reason that would suggest otherwise, and if you disagree, please show these differences.

Secondly we have Stijns 57er KVK1 wo/s with the classic Deumer hardware. This is an all 57er production made from the wartime die, but of course with integrated disc and it is a match to Mikes KVK and has identical disc and peblings.

So Nigel, if you are right that there are differences in the die that points to a different maker, I challenge you (in a friendly atmosphere) to point out any differences from the Deumers I did a compare with, that is not due to production, machinery, evolution, materiel, finish etc, but only differences within the die.
Images says a thousand words.

What the future bring, will indeed be interesting, but I can not see that this is any less proven than any other awards that we have already nailed to a maker, but you never know, the ones we know as St&L might not be St&L afterall, etc.

I will give you my 57er Souval KVK2 wo/s if you can prove me wrong, and that this is not a Deumer

KR

Karsten

[Tom C.]

Hi Nigel,

57er has been produced from 1957 till the 1980´s, so some sort of changes in finish weight and thickness are to be expected within the manufacturer. This some of the parameters that we use to determine whether an award is very early, early, mid period etc.
KR

Karsten

just to point out 57ers are still being produced

best regards
tom

[Nigel N]

Hi Karsten!!
Thanks for your comments!!!
I am not saying that Mike's KVK is definitely not a Deumer, what i am saying is there is not enough proof for me, if there is for you, thats fine!!!
The whole Deumer die thing is not enough for me to say that this KVK was made, finished and sold by Deumer, it may well have been, and i'm sure Mike would be more than happy with a nice Deumer KVK in his collection!!
I would rather base the maker on where a badge or medal finishes up, not where it starts, ie with a wartime Deumer die.
If we apply the same logic to the Souval KVK what would we get......
We would say "well, its made from a wartime S&L die, therefore, it must be an S&L!!"
Clearly this is completly wrong, so, to me, to say that Mike's KVK is a Deumer because it came from a die that matches Deumers old wartime die is not good enough!!
The differences i referred to, thickness, weight, finish etc. in other words the basic medal, you have already said are'nt of any concern to you, so if you are happy to call this a Deumer Karsten, that is perfectly ok!!!!!!
-Nigel

[Tom C.]

Or, its by a previously unknown maker, where Tom;s K&Q idea comes in!!!
I dont know if Klein & Quenzer were active at this time?? But there were certainly many wartime makers still in buisness postwar, and not just in Germany either, Austria cant be ruled out when it comes to pieces by unknown makers!!!
-Nigel

Hi Nigel

K&Q were definatly producing the 1971 reservist medal like assman they wrote their initials on the backand comparing the assman and K&Q bundeswehr badges there are subtle differences which implys they were definatly producing and not just buying and stamping

best regards
tom

[Nigel N]

Thanks for the info Tom...very interesting!!!!!!!
-Nigel