More KVK Stuff!!

[Nigel N]

Hi Guys, you might think i was sick of the sight of KVK's!!!
But.......Karl's comments on another KVK gave me an idea................
How does the Souval KVK2 compare with the S&L????
Its just a couple of pics, i want to see if its worth taking this any further???
Anyway, have a look, and see what you think, i just grabbed the first S&L i put my hand on, i know they differ a little over time!
The Souval has lost its finish, and has a different suspension and ribbon ring, but see if you think there are similarities or not!!
I look forward to your views!!!!
004.jpg

007.jpg
-Nigel

[Tom C.]

kvk stuff is always good stuff

there are very few differences other than the ring and suspension loop

on the souval the back seems to rise a little more than the S&L but that might just be the wear

the S&L on the sword handles appears better quality than on the souval

and lastly the loop of the 9 on the '39 on the S&L appears to be more angled

oh and the swords ends at the base of the centre are thicker on the S&L than on the souval

other than those points they are the same medal

regards
tom

ps are they the same weight/thickness

[Nigel N]

Hi Tom!
Thanks for your comments, i have'nt weighed then yet, but Souval are famous for using zinc type metal for a lot of their stuff, while the other 57 makers used better quality material, so weight might be different, but i will weigh them, and measure them carefully!!
-Nigel

[Karsten S]

Hi Nigel,

For me this is a very very interesting compare indeed and it might even hold a secret about Souval-Steinhauer relations.

If we compare the two KVK2´s, I think that there is no doubt that these comes from the same mother die. The pebling (dots) are like fingerprints. Not two alike, unless they come from the same Mother die.
I have showed two area´s, one on each side, to show that they are identical. I have compared several area´s from both awards, and the result is the same, identical.
However, there is one are where they differ´s!!!
If you look at the center on the reverse (blank disc), you will notice that it is different. Pebling´s are arrange totally different on the two KVK´s.

My though is that, Souval somehow got hold of a wartime Steinhauer & Lück die. Not the master, since St&L made their own 57er KVK2 from identical die, but some sort of work die?
Only problem is, that these KVK2 does not correspond with the wartime St&L KVK´s that I know (a zinc and Buntmetall KVK mm4), whereas the Deumer used their wartime die to make their 57er KVK.
So it could tecnical be the other way around, that St&L had to go to Souval or even third party?

Anyway this is what I see in these two KVK´s.

KR

Karsten

[Karsten S]

Center discs.

[Nigel N]

Thanks for your comments Karsten!
I dont want to influence anyones views on these two KVK's, by saying what i think at the moment, although to be honest i've have'nt looked at the details closely yet, and hope more guys will chime in with their thoughts...please!!!
I have weighed the two KVK's.......
S&L 25g
Souval 20g

-Nigel

[Karsten S]

Thanks for your comments Karsten!
I dont want to influence anyones views on these two KVK's, by saying what i think at the moment, although to be honest i've have'nt looked at the details closely yet, and hope more guys will chime in with their thoughts...please!!!
I have weighed the two KVK's.......
S&L 25g
Souval 20g

-Nigel

Hi Nigel,

Like you, I would have expected some more imput from some more of the guys, so I am not sure how long you should hold your breath .
Could you lift the carpet a little bit to let us in on what you are thinking about?
It is a bit exiting what it is, since it does not include the smaller details

KR

Karsten

[Seewolf]

I really would like to give some input but i am not very good in comparing. For me the dates look close but i can see differences in the swords......and then i am off

But i wonder why Souval should use here any S&L dies because they made KvK´s in wartime and had for sure the original wartime mother die in stock. And it should be easy for someone like Souval to create a 57er die from the mother......it´s only a change of both disc sides......or better one side of the disc when you only switch avers to reverse.

So sorry, friends....not very much from me

[Karsten S]

Hi Rüdiger,

It is indeed strange, and even thus KVK2 are one of the most common awards, I would presume that they made it, but I have actually never seen a Souval wartime KVK?

Has anyone else?

KR

Karsten

[Nigel N]

Well i have'nt done any more study on this piece, but it seems as if its an interesting one, and worthy of more!!
From what i've seen so far, it appears that this Souval KVK came from the same basic die as the normal S&L 57 version, the only big difference is the central disc on the reverse, the pebbling here is not the same.
I would guess the best explanation, is that the die that Souval used for this KVK2, possibly, originally had a swastika, which had to be removed, and the central disc pebbled to match the rest of the cross?
That would make sense, if thats right, where did the swastika cored die come from??
Theres a few possibilities i suppose, it could be a wartime die, but Souval made Third Reich postwar copies of this medal, and i would'nt be surprised if S&L did'nt do the same???
It seems to me, that dies changed hands, postwar, between various makers, a couple of examples would be the Assmann 57 EK1, which uses both a core and a frame from S&L dies, and the so called "Schickle" RK, which for sure uses frames made from the old wartime Schickle dies, but is no Schickle!
Also, the Souval blank core EK's also ended up using frames from S&L dies, theres many other examples too!
So where this die originally came from is not easy to say, it does appear to be a reworked swastika version, and has a strong link to the S&L 57er version!!
I would love to see more pics of Karls 2 piece (at least i think its 2 piece) Souval KVK2 from his recent medalbar, see how that compares, and any other Souval's out there!!
-Nigel

[Tom C.]

now that makes sense

what if souval made postwar swastika badges and at the same time had a bloke lop off half of the swastikas and say 1957 version kiling 2 with one die so to say

regards
tom

[Nigel N]

Its been done before by Souval Tom, on many badges etc., so that is a strong possibility!!
-Nigel