57 Luftwaffe pilot/observer badge Opinions welcome

[daddycaro]

weight 38 grs
http://img4.imageshack.us/g/img1917h.jpg/

[Matthieu]

Modern made or even copy ... sorry.

[speedytop]

Hi,

"... or even copy"

Why a copy?

Uwe

[Matthieu]

Adding the pix for better reference .... better then link to Imageshack.

[Nigel N]

Hi,

"... or even copy"

Why a copy?

Uwe

If someone tries to make a badge look like it is by, say S&L, when it has no connection to S&L at all, is that not a copy??????

[Matthieu]

I stated my opinion based on :

* Wreath can be bound on similar modern made pieces ( often found of eBay and other sites ).
* Design of the eagle imitates wartime FLL design.
* Gut feeling ...

Fake 57ers ( specially made to fool collectors ) do exist ... just have a look on eBay .
IMO this piece was made with "imitation" wartime pieces, and was made with one purpose only ... to fool collectors.

Unless anyone else states its a rare 57er version, then I stand corrected and will do what this smiley shows .... .

Grtz
Mathijs

[LuckyLuudje]

IMO not a vintage 57 but modern crap

[speedytop]

Copy, fake, crap!

"IMO this piece was made with "imitation" wartime pieces"

How could a 1957 version imitate war time pieces?

It looks like a badge based on the regulations (Herstellungsvorschrift Nr. 71).

It looks like the picture in the "Beilage zum Bundesanzeiger Nr. 41".

Uwe

[LuckyLuudje]

Mathijs,
You better be carefull with your words.
Otherwise we only have boring discussions about definitions in this section wich most serious 57 collectors absolutely don't care about and a few people for some reason love to discuss about.

But if I understand you correct, you think that this badge is a copy made from a FLL pilot badge wich had the swass or a denazified copy of a poswar made pilot badge.
If so, I agree.
I have seen these popping up a lot lately (described to have been made by S&L) and I will show a badge wich is thought to have been made by FLL.....looks to have similar characteristics.

Whatever it is, it is NOT a searched after German vintage made, desirable and collectable 1957 awards

[speedytop]

Hi,

"... 1957 awards"

How could "most serious 57 collectors" write "1957 awards"?

There had never been an award of 1957 versions.


Whatever you think, it is a 1957 version like others.

Uwe

[LuckyLuudje]

pfff.....here we go again.

If I am quoted, quote the whole sentence where the crucial word "NOT" is also written.

I won't reply anymore because I am not interested in boring, endless and useless discussions about regulations and definitions.
I rather spend my time in researching the items themself.

[speedytop]

Hi Luud,

"pfff.....here we go again."

That is the complete sentence.

And for the wrong term "1957 awards" the word NOT is not important.

And I see once more, that it is important, to write "about regulations and definitions."

I'm a collector of pieces (metal, paper, cloth etc.), but I'm not only interested in the material.
For me the history must be included, just for such special pieces like 1957 versions.
If a collector is not willing to accept the reality about these pieces (for example, that such pieces never had been awarded; that pieces, made in 1958 and made in 2011, are "Originals", if they look like the pictures in the "Beilage"), then it is for me a collector of pure metal, but not a collector of decorations with history.

I think, that you, Luud, know much more about the material of the existing 1957 versions.
But believe me, I know much more about the special history of these pieces, all the official regulations like the "Herstellungsvorschriften" included.

Is it really your intention, to collect only the material and to ignore the very special historic dimension?


Hi knockoffnigel,

"If someone tries to make a badge look like it is by, say S&L, when it has no connection to S&L at all, is that not a copy??????"

I wrote something about that a long time ago in this section.
And I wrote something in different sections here about the terms original, copy and fake (forgery/counterfeit), very special discussions .

I try it short:
For the competent authorities it is not important, who made the 1957 versions and in which intension (to deceive/fool someone or not).
If the pieces look like the pictures in the Beilage and were made in metal, it should be OK.

For collectors could exist fakes/forgeries/counterfeits (but not copies), made and sold exlusively to deceive collectors. But even such a fake is a 1957 version.

Uwe

[LuckyLuudje]

Although I didn't plan to respond anymore I will add the following to settle my thought once and for all.
Because there are way to many threads in this section where important information is not mentioned anymore because collectors don't want to end up in a frustrating discussion about something they have no interest in.

I collect documents, metal items and much more from the TR era till around 1965.
For me it IS for me important who made a 57 item and when because I limited my collecting field to German made 57's from the early days (+/- 1965).
Almost all the 57 collectors have the same interests except some of them also collect Austrian made denazified fakes that are made of low quality (und mostly ugly).
I limited myself because of the qaulity and the intentions they have been made.
Most of my 57's are bought by the vet and wore with the same pride that they wore their wartime items.
I don't care about the chinese stuff that is made yesterday and found all over ebay and although they may be called 57's acoording to the regulations, I am not aware of anyone (besides 1 person)who considers them collectable.
And There are not many veterans that buy and wear that stuff!
Most bought them in the early days when there wasn't a huge market for collectors.

Ignoring the history is a statement I can't find myself in because most collectors became active collecting militaria out of historical interests.
But my main historic interest lies in the history what really happend and not in linguistical formulations.

If the awarding criteria is so important, I don't understand why this discussion is so often in this section and not in other sections.
MANY wartime made items were never been awarded but unissued or private bought by someone.

So the word "award" is commonly used for an award that has never been awarded and out of habit it is also used in this section.
I agree that the word is not completely correct used, but I and many others don't care about that and know exactly what is meant by the word "award".

So if the collectors use words that are liguistic not 100% correct used, they are very clear for "most" experienced and novice 57 collectors.
In a world with many nationalities where English is not the first language, they understand what is meant by the words that are used.
There are no words to cover the 57 items well for 57 collectors.
So if words like for example: copies, fakes and awards are partial wrongly used according some people, it may be time just to make "new" words that will be clear for anyone.
New words that are commonly accepted happens daily.
But words can have multiple meanings.
So maybe it is time to start a 57 jargon where the words will have another meaning!!!!!