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**DavidM** · 11-26-2009, 02:07 PM

Hello

First of all, a nice and interesting wound badge. Second, is it a 57 piece or a replacement WW1 wound badge? To be honest, I don't know, but I don't think either possibility is unreasonable.

One thought I would throw out is, given how much Rudolph Souval churned out medal/badge wise after WW2, if they went into new form 57 production I would have expected to see many more new form items from them, especially the EKs, RKs, DKs etc. Souval certainly wasn't known for hiding it's light (products) under the proverbial bush, and if it could sell reproduction swastika'd RKs, EKs etc after the war, then why not legitimate new form pieces? Further, if they were making 57 items, would they put a defunct makers mark on them? What would be the point? On the swastika'd reproduction/replacement pieces yes, but these? It is of course always possible, and would be great if they did make 57'ers as then we have another manufacturer and variants to go after

All that said, and I could be wrong on this, but my money is currently on this being a replacement WW1 wound badge. Why stamped as is it? I don't know. Made during WW2 or just after? If there's never been a swastika on this, then it can only be one of the two options.

Regards
David

**Nigel N** · 11-26-2009, 02:43 PM

David, many thanks for your reply, and some good ideas too!!! I've not seen a WB like this before, though it is quite similar to one Vince posted sometime ago, that was also a solid black version, but with completely different and unknown hardware, Peter said he thought that one was period, and made by a small manufacturer in Austria!
Up till recently i would have dismissed the thought of Souval making/selling 57 pieces, but a few recent postings are making me think again, there was a Bronze CCC posted by Mathijs, that looked like an S & L, but MM'd with L/58. Thomas posted a naval clasp, again MM'd L/58, there was the information that Daniel was told by an Austrian collector, that Souval did make/sell small numbers of 57 pieces, getting the dies/ badges from S & L. And now this WB turning up!!
Not enough evidence yet i think, but worth keeping an open mind?? -Nigel

- Vinces badge

Attached Files

earlybwb.jpg (206.6 KB, 98 views)

**Nigel N** · 11-26-2009, 02:53 PM

That was the only WB i could find with the extra "berry"!!!!!medals 460.jpg

**DavidM** · 11-26-2009, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by knockoffnigel View Post

David, many thanks for your reply, and some good ideas too!!! I've not seen a WB like this before, though it is quite similar to one Vince posted sometime ago, that was also a solid black version, but with completely different and unknown hardware,

The front of Vinces WB is different to yours as well.

I agree, we should keep an open mind, but I have to confess to being a bit sceptical about Souval marked 57 pieces, in the main due to the spurious marks I've seen placed on some legitimate 57'ers (in an attempt to 'enhance' the piece and it's value) which are very clearly not from Souval but stamped up with their wartime numbers.

Regards
David

**Nigel N** · 11-26-2009, 02:56 PM

Apart from the very different paint, i thought they looked pretty much the same!!! Most WB's dont have a berry in the place i marked, i think???

**DavidM** · 11-26-2009, 03:02 PM

Originally posted by knockoffnigel View Post

Apart from the very different paint, i thought they looked pretty much the same!!! Most WB's dont have a berry in the place i marked, i think???

I agree that the extra berries (there's a couple or so of extra ones compared to most 57 WBs) are the same, but yours has pronounced lines or veins down the centre of the leaves, whereas Vinces doesn't, and I don't think it's a difference in paint thickness covering the veins up.

Regards
David

**Nigel N** · 11-26-2009, 03:23 PM

One more thought David, is that Souval MM'd some of their blank core EK1 & 2's with the L/58 mark, so even though it does'nt make sense, they did it!!medals%20462.jpg
These also featured frames by S & L, and often hardware too, and we know they were made in the 50's & 60's, so there is a certain link there!!
PS forgot to say that as far as i know, that unusual Souval catch only appeared postwar, so that should also help to date it!!

**Nigel N** · 11-27-2009, 10:08 AM

Trawling thru the old threads, i came across this Austrian vets grouping belonging to "Gran Sasso" from 2007, a very similar solid BWB, only without the Souval style catch....1957-1.JPG

**Nigel N** · 11-27-2009, 10:09 AM

Notice also, the blank core Souval EK2.....1957-2.JPG

**Nigel N** · 11-28-2009, 03:52 AM

I asked the seller if he had any info on this WB, and he said both this piece and the trifold EK2 belonged to the same Austrian vet! I dont see any reason for him to lie about it at this stage!!
Maybe time for a quick review... This is a new form or 1957 design wound badge, it is not a de-nazified wartime badge, it is not a de-nazified post war copy, and (with all due respect to David) i dont think its a replacement WW1 Wound Badge either!
It features Souvals unique postwar hardware, and their L/58 makers mark.
Several other similar badges have been seen, including one in an Austrian vets grouping.
Souval made blank core EK's for Austrian vets, so its not too surprising to think that they also made other 57 pieces too!! It must have been only a small production run, but i think the evidence is now looking pretty strong that Souval was a maker/seller of 57 pieces!
We've all seen 57ers in the past MM'd with L/58, and always dismissed them, but were we right to?? Maybe the evidence was there all along , but we did'nt want to see it!!!
Obviously its up to each of you to make your own minds on this, but i must say, from what i've seen.....I'm a believer.....smiley-alien009.gif -Nigel

**Nigel N** · 11-28-2009, 04:44 AM

Souval family.........medals 487.jpg

**DavidM** · 11-28-2009, 08:53 AM

Hello

An interesting debate is this one. The evidence does appear to be moving towards Souval having been, in comparision to the likes of S&L, a small time maker of at least some 57 pieces. I'm not 100% convinced as yet, but I'm quite a bit closer to thinking that Souval may have made some 57 items.

I was going to e-mail them and ask if they could confirm this one way or another, but their web site and e-mail address expired earlier this month and haven't been renewed, (it was www.souval.com). I suspect, given that I can't get through by phone either, they may have finally gone out of business or, having been taken over a few years ago after the Umlauf family sold up, (Herr and Frau Umlauf having died a good few years ago now and their children having no interest in the business), may have finally changed the name. However, they are still coming up on business listings as:

RUDOLF SOUVAL KG
Zieglergasse 6 1070 Wien Wien , Viena , Vienna -AUSTRIA
Phone : +43 (1) 52 32 63 50
Products : Flags, Insignia badges , Insignia trophies

If I get time I might drop them line and ask the question, did you make the new form 57 pieces

Regards
David

**Nigel N** · 11-28-2009, 09:32 AM

Hi David, if you could find out any information, that would be great, i seem to recall reading somewhere that they had indeed ceased trading, it might have been here on the forum, not sure!!
I also think its possible that one or two other firms in Austria may also have made small numbers of new form pieces for vets, i know Friedrich Orth are still in production today!!
Little seems to be known about any Austrian produced 57 pieces, its a very grey area, with information hard to come by!!
Cheers David

-Nigel

**Nigel N** · 12-20-2009, 03:14 PM

Another Souval WB turned up, again from Austria.....!BhKCpCgBWk~$(KGrHqYOKiYErzMofhmhBLH76)cmtQ~~_12.jpg This one looks to have been silver!!

**Nigel N** · 12-20-2009, 03:15 PM

Usual postwar Souval hardware, but can't seem a MM on this one....!BhKCq)wCGk~$(KGrHqIOKiIErysn2NJgBLH763lLzw~~_12.jpg

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