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    #16
    Originally posted by knockoffnigel View Post
    Have'nt i seen another early publication or list of 57 orders where all the war and qualification badges are shown ( in drawings ) without any pins at all ?? Can't remember which one it is!!![ATTACH]1353632[/ATTACH] -Nigel
    That, Nigel, might possibly be the Beilage zum Bundesanzeiger Nr.41 vom 28.Februar 1958, which shows the fronts of, for example, the IAB but with no pin showing at all. The same applies to others in that article as well.

    I will respectfully have to disagree with St.&L. as regards the illustrations that Stijn has shown here. If basing the illustrations on projects/designs (by which I assume St.&L. implies that only the front design is shown, no pins, back views etc), then why put a pin onto the illustration? But lets say that these illustrations were based on projects/designs, and that the illustrator decided to add a pin for effect, then surely the illustrator would draw something that they were familiar with, which in this case looks pretty well identical to the flatter type pin seen on some 57 items.

    Regards
    David

    Comment

      #17
      Well done David, that is indeed the one i was thinking about!!! -Nigel
      sigpic 57ers...."The Devil Is In The Detail"

      Comment

        #18
        I'm lookin forward to find this flat wide pin setup on an very early badge

        Plz take again a serious look on the whole shape of the pin of the IAB illustration, on which 57er IAB you will find exact this version of a pin???

        The round wire pin was the first.

        Comment

          #19
          Okay, maybe my aging eyes missed the drawing-vs-photo thing, but I agree with David and still hold that early examples can be found with wide pin and perhaps EARLIER versions to boot. Perhaps the badges were made early, exhibiting early crisp strikes, stored and then hardware added later after thin, round pins ceased use, but there's no denying that there are some very early badges have wider pins. Most on this forum have held that small round pins are the earliest, but there is evidence that requires research and discussion.

          Check the two SWB's below. Which is earlier?
          Attached Files

          Comment

            #20
            Originally posted by St.&L. View Post
            I'm lookin forward to find this flat wide pin setup on an very early badge

            Plz take again a serious look on the whole shape of the pin of the IAB illustration, on which 57er IAB you will find exact this version of a pin???

            The round wire pin was the first.
            I've already said that I believe that the round style pin was the first, and trust me, I have already taken a very long look at the shape/style of pin in the illustration otherwise I wouldn't have made the comments that I have. Based on what I can see in the illustration, it's the same as on one of my IABs, which is an early made piece. I'll post both later once I have some proper daylight over here.

            Regards
            David

            Comment

              #21
              I would say the left WB is earlier than the right one
              The finish looks more like the wartime ones, gut feeling and it has another IMO earlier silver finish.
              The right one is "better" made with the finish, has better burnishing and a more perfect look. I really think the the earliest versions of our pieces have more the wartime look with a little missing paint, not perfect burnishing.
              I once more show my IAB, look at the backside where the paint is not complete at the top of the wreath. I think it´s one of the earliest versions ever produced. Same with my BWB.

              Not perfect finish = earliest one
              perfect finish = very early, but a little later
              Attached Files

              Comment

                #22
                Hello

                As promised, here are my two IABs in silver. Which one has the round pin (which I have said are to be found the earliest pieces) and which has the wider or fatter pin? Please note, one of these IABs has experienced some handling or in use wear, while the other is near mint. Both have done in black and white rather than colour to smooth out any lighting differences.

                I'll post photos showing rear and fronts with pins later, as one of the issues being debated over this is can the wider/fatter pin be seen on early IABs, and is like, or indeed the same, as the one in the illustration.

                Anyway, here's the first one.

                Regards
                David
                Attached Files
                Last edited by DavidM; 11-22-2009, 05:36 AM.

                Comment

                  #23
                  And here's the second one
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                    #24
                    Hello guys

                    Very interesting discussion.
                    IMO everyone agrees that the crispness of strike is very important to determine whether it is an early one or not. Secondly i think we agree the round pin was first and then the rest.


                    The rest of the discussion will be speculations IMO. We don't know (or at least i don't know) how much badges there were produced in the beginning and at what time the setup was changed.

                    IMO there will be also be found very early strikes with a different set up (wide pin fe). The reason is rather simple i guess. You have for exemple 500 badges you struck and if you only have 485 round pins, you have the finish the last 15 badges with a different setup. But this is just a thought.

                    IMO the right woundbadge is the earliest because you have a lot of detail on the upper right leaves for exemple. Rüdiger has a point with the finish but when i look a the details of the badge, i go for the right one.

                    Best regards

                    stijn

                    Comment

                      #25
                      Hello David

                      When i was writing my last reply, you posted some very nice ISA badges. Very nice.
                      I find it always difficult to compare two different badges because there is always a difference in finish (as with the woundbadges).

                      IMO the first badge you posted (#22), is the earlier one. For me there is a bit more detail on the rifle. But this can be due to lesser finish as the second one. The second one is very nice with the highlight on the sling.

                      Best regards

                      stijn

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Originally posted by mbizy View Post
                        Check the two SWB's below. Which is earlier?
                        Both look like very well struck, quality and early pieces. I'd also guess that both have the solid type hinge block. Which is the earlier? Very, very difficult to say as one looks pretty near mint and the other appears to exhibit some in use and, or handling wear. I wouldn't like to call these without seeing the backs, BUT, for the purpose of this I'd go for the more worn one on the left of the photo. That said, in my opinion they both look like they were made virtually side by side.

                        Originally posted by vic007 View Post
                        IMO the first badge you posted (#22), is the earlier one. For me there is a bit more detail on the rifle. But this can be due to lesser finish as the second one. The second one is very nice with the highlight on the sling.

                        Best regards

                        stijn
                        Anyone else want to have a guess?

                        Regards
                        David

                        Comment

                          #27
                          For me the first WB looks earlier.

                          On the IAB i'm not sure, but it wouldn't wonder me, finding a wider/flat round pin on the second one.
                          Last edited by St.&L.; 11-22-2009, 08:16 AM.

                          Comment

                            #28
                            Hello

                            At the moment Stijn and Markus both feel that the IAB in post #22 is the earlier one, (therefore with the round pin), leaving the IAB in post #23 as the later version with the wider/flatter type pin.

                            But are they correct? I'll leave it a little bit longer before I reveal which is which to give you all a chance.

                            Regards
                            David

                            Comment

                              #29
                              Hi David, i like both your IAB's, and i would'nt have thought they were too far apart in age, i think i slightly prefer the finish on the 2nd one, so i'll say thats earlier!! But its only a guess!!! -Nigel
                              sigpic 57ers...."The Devil Is In The Detail"

                              Comment

                                #30
                                For me the IAB in post 22 is the earlier one. The finish is not as perfect the one in post 23.

                                Comment

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