1957 1st Pattern Ritterkreuz

[streptile]

1957 1st Pattern Ritterkreuz

I've taken a number of photos of my new cross. I also have all of them in a larger size. I will post more soon. Here's a few of the best ones to start off with:











This one is extremely nice. A big thanks to the seller!

Enjoy and thank for looking.

Best,

[streptile]

And one bigger one :

[Mike Yokum]

He shoots and he scores!!!

A very nice and early example Trev! First class all the way!

The dent row is clearly visible in the last shot. The paint appears to be an interesting mix between flat and semi-gloss. Just a beautiful and rare piece! I'm truly happy for you buddy. Now your initial concerns have now been THOROUGHLY put to rest and you have a fine example of the highest decoration in our collecting field.

[streptile]

Thank you, Mike.

I'll have a question for you after I walk the dog, but for now... one more shot showing some ribbing and frosting:



Thanks,

[Mike Yokum]

Max can wait! Put in a doggy door! Haha!

Very nice frosting remnants showing! I really like it!

[streptile]

Max can wait! Put in a doggy door!

A doggy door in New York City? With this Ritterkreuz in the apartment? I think not!

My question for you is about the dent row. You are quite correct that there is a dent row visible, and I've checked it against photos of the B-type frame from Dietrich's RK book. It's a match. So are C-type frames (as this one was judged to be based on previous photos) also known to have this dent row? For some reason I thought the C-type frames were made from brand new dies.

Thanks,

[Matthieu]

That is one fine RK you have there .... I'm sure it'll be a focus point of your collection !!!

[Nigel N]

very nice Trevor,your RK looks really good in those new photo's!!beerchug.gif -Nigel

[streptile]

Thank you Mathys and Nigel! It certainly will be a focal point of the display. I've got a few more photos that I'll upload when time permits.

My question for you is about the dent row.

I didn't mean to restrict my last question to Mike. Anyone, please feel free to weigh in on it.

What I could gather (from Dietrich's RK book) is the following:

At some point during the war, S+L's RK die -- the A-type frame die -- had become so degraded, and the frames it produced so flawed, that a repair was necessary. The resultant repaired, but not new, die now made frames that we now call B-type frames. The B-type frames had none of the A-type flaws (initially, anyway) but did have a couple of new ones. One of these newly introduced flaws was a row of dents on the 4 o'clock beading strand. This is the "dent-row."

At some point into the production of 1957-series RKs, S+L started using a third type of frame, called a C-type. What I wonder is: was the C-type die again a repair-job, or a brand new die? I had thought that it was a brand-new die, in which case it wouldn't likely have the "dent-row."

To put it simply:

Are S+L C-type frames known to have the "dent-row" on the 4 o'clock beading strand?

Your help is very appreciated with this question!

[Seewolf]

Hi Trevor,

first of all...a really wonderful piece with much frosting left. This one is a real highlight for every collection

To the frame.....
...the 57er production started with the B-frame (full of flaws) and then, after a short time i think, it was going to the C-frame. I study these very early RK´s for about 1 year only, but i have seen some with this dent row. It´s a typical flaw on this frame, i think.
I don´t know if the B-frame has been repaired or if they build a new one, but the fact is that there are C-frame RK´s with this dent row out there.
I know it´s not much what i can tell you, but maybe a little helpand information.

Congrats one more time to this great RK

[streptile]

Hi Trevor, I don´t know if the B-frame has been repaired or if they build a new one, but the fact is that there are C-frame RK´s with this dent row out there.

Thanks, Rüdiger. This is exactly the answer I was looking for. To me, it seems that the C-type die must have been a repaired A/B die. Otherwise how could one account for the dent row?

I would be curious to hear from Dietrich, who I know has done a lot of studies on this subject, about this question of repaired vs. new die for C-type frames.

For the time being, here are a few more photos:



I wonder if anyone can determine the period of manufacture for the ribbon any more conclusively from these photos? The snaps are not sewn on anymore.







Thanks,

[streptile]

I just looked back through the old thread on this cross and found a comment from Dietrich that is relevant to the discussion:

In my opinion a late S&L frame. The one I once named "C-Type". The ring dips deeper but one can still see remnants of the dent row.

The wording leads me to believe that he believes that the C-type frame is a repaired B-type frame.

[Leroy]

I believe the correct sequence for 57 crosses (and I stand to be corrected) is:
1.) Typical "B" frame without additional beading flaws
2.) Typical "B" frame with additional beading flaws
3.) So-called "C" frame
If this is NOT the case, it would mean that the supply of all "B" frames without additional beading flaws had been exhausted by S&L before manufacture of the first 1957 version.

I would be very interested to see what others have to say.

[streptile]

I believe the correct sequence for 57 crosses is:
1.) Typical "B" frame without additional beading flaws
2.) Typical "B" frame with additional beading flaws
3.) So-called "C" frame

Hi Leroy,

Yes, that is my understanding, too. I spent some hours last night reading through threads on this question (a few rather heated debates there!). One in particular convinced me that the C-type die is a repaired B-type die, which is itself a repaired A-type die. One die for all the S+Ls.

This evening I will try to post a progression of photos that proves this (to my personal satisfaction).

[Leroy]

If the "C" is a repaired "B", that would eliminate the possibility of the "worn out" B dies being sold to an English dealer, as claimed in the past.