Possibly '57 variant of the Prussian Pilot Badge...?

[mgidhagen]

This thread was originally posted in the Imperial forum, where there are also some detailed close-ups...:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=358916


I found this badge interesting, as it struck me as a possible Third Reich era/1930s wearers' copy - or even a later restrike/copy.

The look, feel and smell indicate that this is a badge that is old (but, how old...?) and that it has actually been worn.

The detailing is exquisite, but the design (Crown, detailing to the landscape, bow etc.) does not follow the "norm" (e.g., Juncker or Meybauer).

The solid badge is struck in Tombak, the pin/hinge/catch setup looks vaguely familiar compared to some TR badge makers' hardware, even though it looks like the hinge has been resoldered at some point in time, when also a plate was added to give more "attachment area".

Here are some measures and weight:
Height: 74.5 mm
Width: 45.5 mm
Thickness: 3.5 mm (wreath)/5.6 mm (crown)
Weight: 35 g

The comments I had indicated that this might be an early '57 type restrike of the Prussian pilot badge, hence the reposting in this forum...

What are your thoughts...? If genuine, is this a rare birdie...?

Cheers,
Mikael

[mgidhagen]

Pic 2

[Mike Yokum]

Hi Mikael,

This badge is not an authorized 1957 reissue as it can NOT be found here on the list of reissued TR badges: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=192100

While the hardware does bare some resemblance to a 57er type setup, that does not make it a 1957 New Form award.

That establishes what it is not. As for what it is, that question still remains.

[A Collector]

Hello,

My personal feeling is that it is a legitimate die struck piece that could date from the 1930's judging by the hardware - but the obverse design is also found on pieces attributed to the WWI years. Sanke card #531 (Leutnant Bertrab) and #520 (Leutnant Voss) seem to show this type of bow with the more rounded shape, straighter, more parallel sides than the angles CEJ bow. If memory serves me correctly, the only known firms manufacturing flying badges were: C.E. Juncker, Paul Meybauer, and Carl (or Karl) Poellath. On a marked CEJ piece with a different bow, the berry at the left hill slope where the wreath touches the mountain would be the kiss of death. However, with this bow, the berry is correct in it's positioning, and the lack of the berry in the wreath directly below is correct for this style bow as well. This same exact type of bow and berry arrangement can be found on period Army WWI badges and Navy flying badges as well. I have seen WWI period badges with this same berry and bow arrangement punched with an '*' on the pin. I have yet to see any examples like this with an actual maker name. This is not a bad thing as there are exquisitely made 100% authentic silver cliché' and solid tomback badges (like yours) that only feature a "square" mark either on the pin in cliché' form, or stamped on the reverse of the badges in tombak. Whether these examples are from the known manufactures or from unknown firms is a mystery.

Recently, I posted my Imperial silver VWA which is a two piece ray back (made just like the pilot's badges), and a member here made mention that he suspected it to be a CEJ piece. There are a few examples of these types of rare VWA's that exhibit the '*' on the pin as well. I could only speculate that perhaps CEJ had more than one set of dies. I hope I haven't made things more confusing for you.

[streptile]

This badge is not an authorized 1957 reissue as it can be found here on the list of reissued TR badges: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=192100

Sorry, Mike, did you mean to write this?:

This badge is not an authorized 1957 reissue as it can be not found here on the list of reissued TR badges.

I didn't see it on the list there.

Just to clarify. Trevor

[Mike Yokum]

Sorry, Mike, did you mean to write this?:

This badge is not an authorized 1957 reissue as it can be not found here on the list of reissued TR badges.

I didn't see it on the list there.

Just to clarify. Trevor

You are correct Trevor. Thanks for catching that! I've edited the post to eliminate any potential confusion.

[mgidhagen]

Apparently, the opinion is switching towards this being a 1960s strike, in the original thread...: http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=358916

So, obviously the badge was made during the 1960s...? Officially or unofficially...?

By the way, without knowing anything about '57 restrikes, as this is NOT a TR badge per definition, why should it be included in the mentioned list...?

Be that as it may; this is a nice badge...!

Cheers,
Mikael

[Bob Hritz]

The hinge, pin and catch are those used in the 1960s to 1970s copies made by Steinhauer and Lueck, Deumer, and others as souvenirs.

A very nice badge, but of low value.

Bob Hritz

[A Collector]

Hi all,

I hope Andreas doesn't mind my using his photo posted here on the forum in another area. This is an example of a CEJ marked WWII VWA that shows striking similiraties to the hardware seen on the badge in question. Though a little later than my comment about being 1930's, this setup seems to pre-date the 1960's. Also, it could lend a hint as to the possible maker of the Flyer's badge posted here. Your thoughts?
Thanks

[streptile]

Hi.
Personally I'm not sure the hardware setup is that similar. Also, in my view, for a link between makers to be made, the hardware should be identical. After all, the idea of linking an unmarked badge to a particular maker by comparison with the hardware of a marked badge rests on the assumption that the parts are the same, not just similar. Here, the pin is clearly different, the catch is clearly different, and the hinge-block, while similar, doesn't seem identical and is a very common type anyway. That the catch and the hinge block are affixed to small oval plates is interesting but not really helpful, as this too was done by more than one maker, and in any case the plates are not of the same shape. The badge that started this thread may be a Juncker, but we don't learn that from comparison to the L/12-marked one shown here, in my opinion.
~Trevor

[mgidhagen]

Hardware...

I have no idea whether this aerial gunner is a legit type or not, but at any rate, the very same type of hardware is used...?

[Mike Yokum]

By the way, without knowing anything about '57 restrikes, as this is NOT a TR badge per definition, why should it be included in the mentioned list...?

The question was "Is this a 1957 badge?"

The answer is simply, if it's not on the list, it's not an authorized New Form award. No one said it should be on the list.

[streptile]

There is a distinction to be observed between "a 57er award" and an authentic replacement award manufactured during the '50s or '60s (or later). Only those on the authorized list may be called the former. Any award not on the list but made as a replacement for a veteran isn't a "57er award." I'm not saying it was, but if this piece (thread starter) was struck in the late '50s or '60s, it's likely an authentic replacement award. But it's not a "57er."

Someone will correct me if I've got this wrong.

[mgidhagen]

Ok, as I now realise that any discussion on this particular badge (not being on the official 1957 awards list) is posted in the wrong Forum, I will return to the Imperial one. Sorry for the mixup!
Cheers
Mike

[Mike Yokum]

There is a distinction to be observed between "a 57er award" and an authentic replacement award manufactured during the '50s or '60s (or later). Only those on the authorized list may be called the former. Any award not on the list but made as a replacement for a veteran isn't a "57er award." I'm not saying it was, but if this piece (thread starter) was struck in the late '50s or '60s, it's likely an authentic replacement award. But it's not a "57er."

Someone will correct me if I've got this wrong.

Well said Trevor. You nailed it.