Later issue '57 Cased Knights Cross

[Dave Kane]

This area obviously doesn't get much wear and tear and is an excellent point to look for to identify even a very worn frame....

The beading is split...

[Dave Kane]

double post and pic!

[DavidM]

Hello

I have spent quite some time this afternoon doing a photo comparison analysis of the cross posted here by Bob and a known S&L late manufactured 57 RK, (the ones with the bad, thick paint job that seals up the edge between the frame and core). This involves cropping the photos down so that only the cross is in the picture, ensuring that they are scaled and sized the same, and then using software to overlay the two photos on each other, with one being made slightly transparent so that the image underneath can be simultaneously be seen.

My results are that the cores match exactly. The viens, shape and size in the central oak leaf spray, and the date numerals match exactly in all respects. The frames are also a match. Admittedly the paint jobs don't match up, but there could be a few reasons for that. The main thing is that the cores and frames match and are identical.

Therefore I will have a very rare disagreement of opinion with CSForrester, and stick with my original statement that the 57 RK shown here by Bob is a late made one from S&L.

If I can work out to how to save the two photos as I see them in the software use, (which I haven't had for long), I'll post pictures of them overlayed on each other.

Regards
David

[CSForrester]

Hello Dave and thanks for the additional pictures and your statement.
Now i am shure that this is the "remake" ( i will never more use the word copy or fake for 57-decorations, speedytop will kill me in his Dschihad) i mentioned.
It was well discussed in the german SDA-Forum and it is, in fact, dangerous.
The problem is the production of this item:
an original and even early 1957-Knights Cross with the core typ-B was remolded, so you see all fingerprints, the dentrow and more, also on the remake. The remake itself is not die-struck and not 3-piece !
I dont know the correct english translation, it is casted with high-pressure or zentrifugal-casting (Schleuderguss) from genuine silver. Take another look on the core and the border to the frame, you will find never a gap between and that is impossible for any wartime or real 3-piece 1957 Knights Cross.
Please check it again, it would be no good signal to the collectors if create here a "new" Steinhauer-variant. I have had all variants from the 1950s to the actual production in my collection, this is not made by Steinhauer.

Regards
Markus Bodeux

[Dave Kane]

Markus, I'll have to leave further examination of the Cross to Bob! I have faint recall that the frames demonstrated gaps in the usual areas but I can't be absolute about it!

I trust that Bob will break out the 5x loupe in the near future

[DavidM]

Hello

Markus, the comparision that I did this afternoon, (see my earlier post below), shows the cores matching up exactly. If the item shown by Bob is a cast piece, could this suggest that it has been copied directly from a genuine S&L 57 RK? Are you also saying that Bobs is a solid silver item?

I have to admit that I am getting slightly confused here. My first instinct was that this is a late S&L. After the comparision I did, combined with the bead split that Dave posted, (I assume Dave, that the photo showing the bead split is one taken of this RK shown here?), I was pretty certain it was an S&L. You are just as equally certain that it isn't an S&L, or indeed from any of the bona fide makers of these. As I have genuine respect for your opinion on these, (as I do for Dave Kanes as well), could you please post some photos of the cast 57 RKs you refer to you for comparision please. That might help to settle this one way or another.

Many thanks.

Regards
David
(Slightly perplexed of Manchester !!)

[Dave Kane]

Hello Dave and thanks for the additional pictures and your statement.
Now i am shure that this is the "remake" ( i will never more use the word copy or fake for 57-decorations, speedytop will kill me in his Dschihad) i mentioned.
It was well discussed in the german SDA-Forum and it is, in fact, dangerous.
The problem is the production of this item:
an original and even early 1957-Knights Cross with the core typ-B was remolded, so you see all fingerprints, the dentrow and more, also on the remake. The remake itself is not die-struck and not 3-piece !
I dont know the correct english translation, it is casted with high-pressure or zentrifugal-casting (Schleuderguss) from genuine silver. Take another look on the core and the border to the frame, you will find never a gap between and that is impossible for any wartime or real 3-piece 1957 Knights Cross.
Please check it again, it would be no good signal to the collectors if create here a "new" Steinhauer-variant. I have had all variants from the 1950s to the actual production in my collection, this is not made by Steinhauer.

Regards
Markus Bodeux

Interesting and although I don't chase '57s I do like a good discussion!

This frame is about to go on the Estand...however, let's see what it tells us! The frame clearly is S&L showing several of the 'fingerprints'. It is LATER than the subject Cross (I assume because the prints are weaker in definition) and it is clearly die struck...

[Dave Kane]

cut off marks...

[CSForrester]

Hello to all,

i will find time to explain my opinion next days, but now it is late evening in Germany and i will start very very early in the morning to the show in Kassel. So please have in the meanwhile a look on this thread

http://sammlergemeinschaft-deutscher...threadid=15366

and please be aware, that new molds for remakes (which are offered on ebay in large number) are taken from "original" pieces. They are not reproduced by simple chimney-casting but with high-quality high-pressure or Schleuderguss.
I have several experiance in this method producing parts for ship-modelling. It is very impressive, if you see the results.
DavidM i do not know if all remakes were made from genuine silver, but i have seen them.

Regards and a good night
CSForrester

[Edgar Estrada]

Interesting and although I don't chase '57s I do like a good discussion!

This frame is about to go on the Estand...

When?

Regards

Edgar

[Dave Kane]

Hello to all,

i will find time to explain my opinion next days, but now it is late evening in Germany and i will start very very early in the morning to the show in Kassel. So please have in the meanwhile a look on this thread

http://sammlergemeinschaft-deutscher...threadid=15366

and please be aware, that new molds for remakes (which are offered on ebay in large number) are taken from "original" pieces. They are not reproduced by simple chimney-casting but with high-quality high-pressure or Schleuderguss.
I have several experiance in this method producing parts for ship-modelling. It is very impressive, if you see the results.
DavidM i do not know if all remakes were made from genuine silver, but i have seen them.

Regards and a good night
CSForrester

CS, will you elaborate..