The Pacific HBO

[Homer Hodge]

I have to agree with some of the last comments posted here. When my friends ask me my opinion on the series, about all I can say is "Where's the beef?" That about sums it up so far. I hope it catches up with itself before it runs out of episodes...mikeb

Mike, I agree; it doesn't quite hang together and "tell the story" like most of the parts of Band of Brothers.

[gew98]

FK ; I'm more or less in the same boat as you on this. The first episode was rather disjointed and just did not seem to build anything into the characters and how they were prtrayed to really get any sense about them, or what made them marines then. Alot of the details seemed to have been passed over and replaced with visual accuracy to a point. I noticed right off the rifles were the wrong type - long thread on this over at the 1911 forums.
The second episode came across a fair bit better... but still it's lacking anything that makes you feel you know these guys like B.O.B. did , and these marines were every bit as close as the 506 guys were. Of the pacific vets I knew the whole souvenir thing was rather up front - alot was traded to navy and army types for food/booze... not once did you see any of the guys grab a pistol,sword,rifle or whatever from the enemy dead... big fau-paux but if you had watched the HBO preview show the night before you could see why they PC'd the crap out of this series as tom hanks and his left nutter cronies went on adnauseum about the political and social times of the day but yet failed to put those attitudes into the production. Hopefully some of the other directors of the upcoming episodes did not let themselves be so hamstrung or PC'd to the point of blah blah.
Alot of those japs had their gold teeth knocked out too... known more than one vet that partook in such things... no love and little respect for the japanese enemy. I've had vets tell me of finding wounded marines whom the japs got to first and butchered them.. were not just talking a bayonet job mind you. Finding bodies of their buddies hacked post mortem as well. The mindset of the enemy seems to have been missed totally by hanks and s'burg so far.



uote=fknorr;3902719]I am going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one and really would any of us care if there were 3 or 33 more episodes...

Other beefs I have with this thus far is that it is called "the Pacific", where is the Army (with 22 divisions as opposed to six Marine), where is the Navy? BoB was specifically about one company in one division. This title, "The Pacific" led one to believe it would be on a much grander scale than BoB. I would have loved to see this start @ Wake Island last night with more background on the characters. Then spend a couple weeks on Guadalcanal following either a Navy Pilot or someone on say the Juneau as well as the Marine thing.

Looking at the episode list also makes me wonder why Tarawa is not there.

It is not like the show wasn't Ok last night. I'll be watching the rest.[/quote]

[Jeff V]

I love the show but I have to agree with you guys about it being a bit disjointed. So far it seems the producers have indeed bit off more than they can chew. I think the savagry (gold teeth) etc. will be shown in the Peleliu segments as this was a central part of Sledge's book. Hopefully the flow of the story improves.
best wishes,
jeff

[Darrell]

I love the show but I have to agree with you guys about it being a bit disjointed. So far it seems the producers have indeed bit off more than they can chew. I think the savagry (gold teeth) etc. will be shown in the Peleliu segments as this was a central part of Sledge's book. Hopefully the flow of the story improves.
best wishes,
jeff

I wonder what constraints (time of mini-series and monetary) there were. Surely they could have made the first episode 90 - 120 minutes to give it a good intro and some meat to the characters. I have no idea what any of the guys names are and it seems like they expect us to for some reason after Part 2.

[kaigunair]

Alot of those japs had their gold teeth knocked out too... known more than one vet that partook in such things... no love and little respect for the japanese enemy. I've had vets tell me of finding wounded marines whom the japs got to first and butchered them.. were not just talking a bayonet job mind you. Finding bodies of their buddies hacked post mortem as well. The mindset of the enemy seems to have been missed totally by hanks and s'burg so far.

I caught the 1st episode online, and though it was grainy and small, I believe there was a scene where after having just entered the jungle, the marines come across some bodies of fellow marines on a tree. It looked pretty graphic to me. I believe also at the end of episode one, the main character looks at a photo while picking through the gear of the fallen jpn (JPN=japanese) soldiers at the battle of alligator creek, while another mentions that this unit might have been the one at samoa because of a US flag found in the bag.

I am curious as to what exactly is the specific "mindset of the enemy" that is lacking in the series. I'm thinking "Letters from Iwo Jima", but not sure that is the vein you're referring to. This is a difference between the mindset of the enemy as viewed by US Marines/servicemen/citizens, and the mindset of the individual japanese soldier through the eyes of a japanese soldier.

I'll end with this: I agree that since the series is based on two books which talk about the experience of marines in a very graphic manner, that the series is showing both high and low points of the actions of individual marines. Its able to do this b/c it shows that the marines were only human. It would be a shame if the series propagated the all too common sub-human view point of the enemy jpn soldiers, based on the view point of US soldiers or mainland propaganda.

One interesting view point is that of the japanese-american soliders who served in the pacific theater (there were thousands - google MISLS). I've had the privilege of speaking with a few, and that is a history lesson in itself.

[gew98]

K ; mindset of the enemy.. jeez where have you been. The japs were on a racist pedigree bent like the nazis were. Round eyes were dogsh*t to them all around. Prisoners were worse than hammered dogsh*t to them.
The sheer brutality of "starvation Island" never came across.The heat , infections , sickness , sores , hunger and unforgiving enemy... just not there ..yet.

[kaigunair]

gew98; this is like saying all germans were nazi's or all confederates in the civil war were KKK men. wasn't true. but in the mind of any soldier, demonizing the enemy does make it easy to justify any savage act committed against a sub-human, racist, thing.

I do agree that no movie could come close to the sheer brutality of war, esp. that experienced by both US and JPN soldiers during the island fighting in the Pacific.

However, the typical JPN soldier (JPN=japanese) fared far worse in terms of death by heat, infections, sickness, sores and hunger than a US soldier during the island fighting. he also was commanded by many an inept leader, who continued to use ww1 tactics and banzai charges. I'd like to point out that there was never any term close to "round eye" used by the jpn soldier to refer to europeans or non-japanese, since they had the same shaped eyes as you and me and did not see their own eyes as being non-rounded.

ps: in the Jpn militaria forum, you are doing yourself and your posts a disservice by the use of a particular term which is the subject of the ONLY sticky in this section. I am an american of japanese and chinese descent, if it matters at all.

K ; mindset of the enemy.. jeez where have you been. The japs were on a racist pedigree bent like the nazis were. Round eyes were dogsh*t to them all around. Prisoners were worse than hammered dogsh*t to them.
The sheer brutality of "starvation Island" never came across.The heat , infections , sickness , sores , hunger and unforgiving enemy... just not there ..yet.

[Homer Hodge]

ps: in the Jpn militaria forum, you are doing yourself and your posts a disservice by the use of a particular term which is the subject of the ONLY sticky in this section. I am an american of japanese and chinese descent, if it matters at all.

I agree with Kaigunair - there is no reason to use derogatory terms to describe the Japanese here. I find it insulting and I am of Scots-Irish descent, so I can imagine how Kaigunair and other members of Japanese ethnicity must feel.

[Homer Hodge]

Many WAF members, and especially those who collect Japanese militaria, already know this but for those who don't:

The Japanese military of WW II - the Kogun - followed a code of ethics usually called Bushido - "the way of the warrior" - based on the feudal Samurai warrior class. Historically this code emphasized the principles of honor, courage, loyalty, unquestioned reverence for the emperor, and contempt for defeat or surrender. This code was inculcated, often very brutally, into recruits during their basic training. An understanding of Bushido helps to explain much of the brutality practiced by the Japanese military during the war. Emphasis was placed on fighting to either victory or death, and offering no quarter to one's enemy. They felt total contempt for anyone who surrendered rather than dying in battle or, if defeated, commiting suicide. Surrender brought disgrace not only to the soldier but to his family in Japan.
In the first episode of The Pacific, on the morning after the Alligator Creek attack, a wounded Japanese soldier kills himself and a couple of Marines/Navy corpsmen with a handgrenade he has hidden behind his back. As he sets off the grenade, he yells in Japanese "for the Emperor!" This is a good example of the mindset of most Japanese servicemen in WW II. The expression at the bottom of my WAF posts reflects this thinking as well - "Death is lighter than a feather but duty is heavier than a mountain."

[birdman]

This has turned out to be one great thread and i hope it will go on thru the whole series. Of course we all can't agree on everything. That is what makes us who we are. I think there are two things we all can agree on. One, do not use the "J" word and two, the pacific island campaign was the most brutal and savage fighting under the worst possible conditions of ww2. Some of the worst is yet to come. The men on both sides are finally being shown to the general public as the brave men they truly were and it's long over due.

Larry

[Jean-Loup]

"Historically this code emphasized the principles of honor, courage, loyalty, unquestioned reverence for the emperor, and contempt for defeat or surrender. This code was inculcated, often very brutally, into recruits during their basic training. "

This quote of Saburo Sakai comes to mind.

The petty officers would not hesitate to administer the severest beatings to recruits they felt deserving of punishment. Whenever I committed a breach of discipline or an error in training, I was dragged physically from my cot by a petty officer. 'Stand tall to the wall! Bend down, Recruit Sakai!' he would roar. 'I am not doing this because I hate you, but because I like you and want you to make a good seaman. Bend down!' And with that he would swing a large stick of wood and with every ounce of strength he possessed would slam it against my upturned bottom. The pain was terrible, the force of the blows unremitting."

[John Hodgin]

Many WAF members, and especially those who collect Japanese militaria, already know this but for those who don't:

The Japanese military of WW II - the Kogun - followed a code of ethics usually called Bushido - "the way of the warrior" - based on the feudal Samurai warrior class. Historically this code emphasized the principles of honor, courage, loyalty, unquestioned reverence for the emperor, and contempt for defeat or surrender. This code was inculcated, often very brutally, into recruits during their basic training. An understanding of Bushido helps to explain much of the brutality practiced by the Japanese military during the war. Emphasis was placed on fighting to either victory or death, and offering no quarter to one's enemy. They felt total contempt for anyone who surrendered rather than dying in battle or, if defeated, commiting suicide. Surrender brought disgrace not only to the soldier but to his family in Japan.
In the first episode of The Pacific, on the morning after the Alligator Creek attack, a wounded Japanese soldier kills himself and a couple of Marines/Navy corpsmen with a handgrenade he has hidden behind his back. As he sets off the grenade, he yells in Japanese "for the Emperor!" This is a good example of the mindset of most Japanese servicemen in WW II. The expression at the bottom of my WAF posts reflects this thinking as well - "Death is lighter than a feather but duty is heavier than a mountain."

Well stated Homer, concur totally.

[Homer Hodge]

This quote of Saburo Sakai comes to mind.

The petty officers would not hesitate to administer the severest beatings to recruits they felt deserving of punishment. Whenever I committed a breach of discipline or an error in training, I was dragged physically from my cot by a petty officer. 'Stand tall to the wall! Bend down, Recruit Sakai!' he would roar. 'I am not doing this because I hate you, but because I like you and want you to make a good seaman. Bend down!' And with that he would swing a large stick of wood and with every ounce of strength he possessed would slam it against my upturned bottom. The pain was terrible, the force of the blows unremitting."

I heard many similar stories from Japanese WWII veterans when I was living and working in the Tokyo area in the mid-1960s.
I also remember one of my Japanese language instructors telling me about the terrible feelings of guilt he had for a long time after the war because, after training to be a Tokugekitai (Kamikaze) pilot, fuel shortages prevented him from fulfilling his duty to the emperor by flying against the Americans.

[bratwurstdimsum]

I agree with Kaigunair - there is no reason to use derogatory terms to describe the Japanese here. I find it insulting and I am of Scots-Irish descent, so I can imagine how Kaigunair and other members of Japanese ethnicity must feel.

I am Chinese and have been living in Australia since I was 7 in 1977

I was insulted heavily as a child for being asian and Japanese like esp from ex vets in the pacific but you know what? I think the language is as necessary in the mini-series as the authenticity of the uniforms and weapons.

It was another world back then, multiculturalism amongst asians and westerners was virtually non existant, there was no internet and less awareness.

I support the language use in the mini-series as a necessary means to communicate the atmosphere and the mood of the soldiers on both sides of the conflict at the time. This was no gentleman's war, this was a war of extermination where both sides were told that the other were devils and subhuman.

Sometimes in the context of soldiering it is easy to refer to them by what our forefathers called them, be it "Jap", "Jerry", "Boche", "limey", or anything else, I would like to think that we have this all in context. Come on, we are all historians here, lets stop it with this PC crap.

[blinky]

The issue isn't that they used those terms during the war, the issue is that some members continue to use that term in this thread. If people of Japanese heritage find it offensive then we should be respectful of their feelings today. Not being pc but rather just being polite.