Seeing the reverse of the collar on Eric's cool "Ike" jacket got me thinking. I feel it would benefit collectors of Japanese military uniforms to open a discussion regarding attachment of cloth (collar tabs, round ratings etc.) insignias. To start, I'd say there probally isn't a 100% correct way to establish if an insignias original to the uniform or added post war. With that said, there are some warning signs & red flags to watch for. For instance, round ratings were usually just tack stitched on the edges & not sewn all around (especially not machine sewn). There are a few reasons for this that I'll allow others to join in with their comments. Judging collar tabs has never been easy. Most surplus/mint/unissued tunics (name not hand written on interior ink stamp) is a pretty clear indication that it shouldn't have rank collar tabs applied. Even this gets tricky because you'll find worn issued tunics with post war added tabs. The Japanese soldiers removed their original tabs at wars end & continued to wear their uniforms, boots etc. Checking the reverse of the collar will show how the rank tabs have been applied. It is my opinion that the clearest indication of period applied insignias is the "invisible" stitch. Sure, some military men were better than others but I mean a type of tack stitch in olive drab/brown/green thread that's neatly done & hardly noticible. I feel red thread (especially large uneven loop stitches) are a warning sign of post war applied insignias. This is open for debate but I think we'll all agree that insignias were originally hand applied. I look forward to a continuing discussion on this subject as well as seeing some photos of collar reverses etc. Thanks in advance.
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Attachment of Cloth Insignia
Jareth-
Thanks for getting this one going. I know nothing about the in's and out's of attaching insignia on Japanese uniforms. That said, U.S. tunics had their insignias and patches attached every which way. Some were sewn straight through either by hand or machine. Some were done by hand with the close edge stitching that I think you refer to as invisible.
Why did the Japanese tack varieties of their rates rather than sew them in fully? It seems that this would not be a very good way to keep them on considering the rough and tumble of wear. I have to admit that I get stuck when I hear about the generalities of how things were done, and then encounter something done differently. Drives me crazy! Glad to see a thread like this! Mike -
I think Jareth pretty much has it. I have seen incredibly few Japanese uniforms that had the original insignia on them. These all were hand stitched or tacked on. There is a sort of unique Japanese stitch or tack which I cant quite describe. It is same style that one sees when they stitch their names on caps or other gear. Some of you know what I am talking about though and perhaps could furnish some photos?
Apparently all Japanese soldiers were taught to sew and rank insignia was required to be removed often for cleaning or under tactical orders.
The woven Bevo style insignia that came out around '43 was probably more wash safe, but these were not used very much during the war.
( I have noticed that the earlier padded wool army rank insignia was most commonly used right to the end of the war. I have only 1 of the pocket hanger patches that has the woven rank. All 21 others that I have are the early type).
It is important to remember that, especially late in the war, no insignia of any type was generally worn in battle. This is not popular with collectors who like to see insignia all over uniforms such as worn in the ETO. Even US forces in the Pacific wore nothing on their uniforms.
The only exceptions seem to be more senior or staff officers who apparently always wore there insignia. They would normally be behind the lines or in caves etc. directing things.
CBComment
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Lakotas (native american Sioux) use a stitch similar in which your stitching will jump spaces, not quite as far as Japanese technic, but we call it "the lazy stich" used in beadwork
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Attachment of Cloth Insignia
Thanks for the example Banzi. Isn't that type of stitching also called chain stitching? MikeComment
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Banzai thanks for posting photo of "the lazy stitch". This is the type of stitch I'd be suspect of especially if it's using red thread to attach collar tabs. Red thread was used in the manufacturing of cloth insignia but was not included in the soldiers personal sewing kit.Comment
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Over the years, I have seen very few tunics equipped with, what I felt were, original wartime applied sewn-on insignia.
In my opinion, the chances of finding a tunic with post-war applied original or reproduction insignia greatly outweigh that of finding a tunic with original wartime applied insignia.
When I look at a tunic with sewn-on insignia, I ask myself 1) is the insignia on the tunic original; 2) is/are the insignia applied to the tunic correctly (e.g., is the insignia sewn onto the correct sleeve or are the “correct” insignia sewn onto the “correct” collars); 3) was the tunic issued and/or does the tunic show wear; and 4) does the thread that was used to sew on the insignia look period? (If a black light is handy, you might want to black light test the thread and insignia.)
To me, and this is just my opinion, the difference in price between a tunic equipped with original wartime applied insignia versus a tunic equipped with post-war, correctly applied, original insignia is not that much of difference. Of course, there are exceptions, but if we are talking about the run of the mill, common, tunics, then no, I do not place much of an adder on a tunic will original wartime applied insignia over one with post-war, correctly applied, original insignia.Comment
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Eric, I tend to agree with most of your post. However, if I were to become a dealer I would place a much higher value on a tunic with original (to that tunic) applied insignia. My thought is how many army combat (not service dress) tunics have you seen that you were 100% confident in their originality? In all my years I only have one very low ranking combat tunic with tabs original to it. I feel U.S. GIs wouldn't be bothered to strip a tunic off an enemy body. Yes, theyd go through it take a flag etc. Certainly the helmet or sword but not many combat (they probally stunk, were filthy etc.) tunics came back. This is why I feel they're worth a premium.Comment
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Jareth,
I have seen only a handful of tunics with, what I felt were, original wartime applied insignia.
I have seen many more tunics with stripped insignia where you could still see the remnants of the thread that was used to attach the insignia to the tunic though.
Premiums are subjective and each person would have to decide what they are willing to pay (or not pay) for a tunic that maybe equipped with original wartime applied insignia.
EricComment
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Rather than start a whole new thread for one question i thought i would add it to this thread while i was searching for the answer on here.
A comment in one of the other old threads about rank insignia mentioned the wearing of a rank tab on a soldiers cap, how often was this done? Is there any photographic evidence to suggest this was done quite often by soldiers?
Thanks guysComment
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Every original uniform I've ever seen has had the insignia hand stitched - usually tacked on in the manner banzai's photo showed. I've seen an original trop shirt with tight handstitched insignia. I've never seen red thread used. I've found tunics with original insignia for $50 and up. My observation is original insignia on a tunic is more important to some than others. It may be as important some day as it is with German uniforms - perhaps not. Naval rates are usually tacked on - both round and later shield types. Rounds commonly in four places or using eyelets present on some rates. I have seen round types originally applied with tight stitching all the way around,but again by hand using appropriate colors of thread depending on color. Shields , usually tacked on at the corners. this topic could go on and on - many possibilities. Originally applied insignia is 'generally' more desirable overall but currently in the Japanese category, most people are there are drawn to a solid uniform with original , visually appealing insignia that is hand applied in a reasonable manner.Comment
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