This might be a dress cross

[Franco]

The story of this one is - it was found in an old jewelry box.There are traces of black paint on the curiously patterned centre.
Anyone know what it is?
Cheers Franco

[Franco]

Size comparison with EK2

[Tiger 1]

Franco,

I read somewhere that another example was purported to be Russian made Kulm Cross. Proving it to be so would be difficult if not impossible at this time unless some type of corraborating evidence is found.

Tony

[Daniel Murphy]

Franco,
OMFG !!! Another one has turned up. Can you take some better pictures and post them. On mine there are two almost microscopic jeweler hallmarks on the back side of one arm. Like this.
Dan Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

Here is the rest of mine. BTW forget about the new pics, just send it to me and I will take some

[Daniel Murphy]

Just kidding. You have got to take some more pics and tell me all about how and where you found it.

[Mark S.]

wrong kind of decorations?

Are you sure they are even awards?

Both remind me of decorative features for something.

[George Stimson]

Surely they are not "Crosses of the Wehrmacht"....

(But, what are they?)

[upbeek]

1

11

[WARLORD]

I think I can solve the mystery. They are not fake, very real, insignia of the Knights Templar.

[Franco]

Thanks Warlord I will have to check that out.And Daniel I dont need to take more pics,I can tell you that unlike yours the back of mine is plain and there are no marks at all.
I bought it on e-bay UK for the grand sum of £12.
Regards Franco

[Daniel Murphy]

Franco,
I have had mine for about 15 years. It was only until about 2 years ago that I realized those little "dents" were markings. Mine came from an old Iron Cross collection that had been purchased by a dealer I know very well. He had no idea what it was (but I did) and I bought it for $100. I had someone tell me that a jeweler does not hand make two dies unless he is planning to make a number of something. So to have another one turn up 15 years later and an ocean away, is not beyond the realm of possibility. I would still like to see some better pictures, if possible, so I can compare the details of yours to mine. All I can tell is that it most likely is, from the shape and certain details. I know you TR guys are going , but this is much more interesting to me than an old "cross of the Wehrmacht".
Dan Murphy

[Franco]

OK Dan,
I will see if I can take some pics without camera shake this time.And do you go along with the Knights Templar explanation?
Regards Franco

[Daniel Murphy]

Franco,
I believe them to be post Napoleonic Wars Russian jeweler made Kulm Crosses. There were many problems with the issue ones such as the officers believing theirs were unattractive (a painted or enameled sheet of plain silver with holes on the corners) and the enlisted men were constantly breaking theirs due to the poor metallurgy of the times that caused them to be brittle. I have, however researched the Knights Templar and every cross I seen worn in illustrations or photos are red. Since there is a black finish on both crosses, this theory is in doubt. I sent a PM to Warlord and asked what information he may have on the organization and why he stated they were used by them. I have not heard back. I will say this, whatever they are, they were made in the early 19th Century (or earlier) due to construction methods and the relative crudeness of the hand made dies. I do not think they are from the middle ages however , when the real Teutonic Knights or Knights Templar were walking the earth. Their date of manufacture would lie in the 1700 to 1850 time period. To my understanding about 1700 was when the first decorations were mass produced using a set of dies versus entirely handcrafting them. I am no expert on this so please correct me if I am wrong.
Dan Murphy
Dan Murphy

[Franco]

Dan,
Here,s some better pictures.You can just about see a small edge split at the centre,probably due to its age.Especially so, if it really is a Kulm cross from the early 19th C.
Regards Franco