Ordnance and ordnance related items used by both sides during the Vietnam War...

[Granate]

What I am wanting to do here is to take an item or piece of ordnance or ordnance-related item(s) that were used by either side during the Vietnam War, and to spell out myth from fact about it. I will then, when possible, try and show a couple of photos of that item in question and finally give out its specifications and how it was to be used and how well it worked in the hot and humid jungles of Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and a few other countries that were probably infiltrated by SOG related Recon Teams. Yes, this also means SOG related Ordnance as well and as such that which was used by our combined International forces (Allies) and our own fighting forces from the Navy, Air Force, Marines, and Army.


The first item I have in mind is this: Grenades, Hand: Fragmentation, Delay, M67 and M33.

[Granate]

The specs for the M33 are the following:

1) The Body is made out of steel with an oblate spheriod shape to it.
2) Weight is 13.9 ounces Filled.renades like this`
3) The fuze is the M213 time delay of between 4.0-4.54) Filler is Composition B, 6.5 ounces worth.

FM 23-30, dated December of 1969 is where I received the above information from. The M33 was a little more powerful than the M26 series. You can also look at these two lines of grenades as similar in fragmentation. The M33 just was a rounded. This made the grenade esasier to throw.

More info in bound!

[Beau Brummel.]

Posting these for Mark.

[Beau Brummel.]

2.

[Granate]

In the top picture you have an M67 which is in my collection of Vietnam Ordnance. It is completely INERT in every way possible. This grenade shown above is almost exactly the same grenade. The only dfference between the two is that the M33 does not come with a wire safety clip attached to the fuze as does the M67.

When I was talking to Mr. Plaster (SOG Recon Team 1-0) a while go on the phone, one of the questions I asked him was what or which grenade was his favorite to carry? His reply to me was the M33/M67. He said by far they were a lot better than the M26 series of grenades and made one hell of a bang when thrown, versus the M26 Series. He went on to state that if he had a bag of those grenades and a CAR15 he would be quite content in facing the enemy. News to me. Another comment he made to me was that the "Baseball" grenades such as the M33's and M67's was that they penetrated thru the Jungle a lot better than the old M26's.

On the bottom picture is the grenade (M67) cut into two vertical haves. This is only one half. If you look at the center of the grenade you will also notice that the rows and dimples do not match up correrctly in the center. What this is telling you is that the actual halves are the top and the bottom welded together with a little amount of steel over-lapping between the upper and the lower halves. If you look closely at my own M67 (INERT) you mah see the weld a little better. Albeit, a very small weld.

This is also showing the internal fragmentation pattern. If you look closely at the "dimples" and the number of rows they are on you can get an idea of what kind of fragments are going to be thrown by this grenade when the Comp B goes off. The only problem with this type of internal frag pattern is that it will not break up along these lines or dimples and this is still a poor way to get an optimal kill pattern and radius. What happens to a lot of these grenades (M33's & M67's) is that they will turn the pattern into small shards of steel of fragmentation and deadly they are, as long as you are within 15 meters of it when it goes off nearby.

To be continued...

[Granate]

Here are the specifications as relating to the M33. Also, some of the specs for the M33 are identical to that of the M67. When you see an asterisk (*) at the end of the statement, that is telling you that they both have the exact same specsifications.

M33:

1) Body is made out of steel with an oblate spheriod shape*
2) Filler is 6.5 ounces of Composition B. See specifications for COMP B below*
3) Weight is 14.0 ounces +- .5 ounces.*
4) Fuse is a M213, Pyrotechnic delay-detonating*
5) Diameter is approx. 2.5 inches
6) Color(s) and Markings are just about the same , however not that close, so a no asterik here.
7) No provisions were made to enable the grenades to be launched from a rifle, submachice gun, or a Carbine by using a "Projector" as the means to hold the grenade in place as it is launched.
8) The average soldier can throw this grenade a little over 35 meters.

More to come and an opinion I'd like you to hear and why I believe it to be true.

Me again!




To be continued...

[mcmike]

Very informative

Thank you for going into all of the detail, and especially the comments of "Mr. Plaster". I suspect that the line you see in picture number 2 is a mold seam line where the two pieces of the mold used to cast the grenade came together, rather than a weld line.

Once again, excellent research and presentation; I look forward to more.

Mike

[Granate]

Mike,

Thanks for the comment! I really appreciate it.

I may have already hit the M33/M67 pretty well. I'll have to go back and re-read.

If so, I am thinking that the M34 or the early used grenade such as the Mk. IIA1.

Will start tonight when it is all quite on the western front.

Mark
MACVSOG "Living Historian

[Granate]

I have decided to change from the M15 to just the M34 because it has a greater relationship with MACVSOG than probably anyone else with the possible exception of the SEALs or LRRP's, maybe. The SEAL's back in Vietnam used both the M15 and the M34. In the 1960's it was declared obsolete for everybody except the SEAL's which still used the M15's right up through the 1980's. I would think that these were still stacked up high in cases at some Naval Base Armory or warehouse.

The M34's specifications are the following:
1) Dimensions are:
a) Diameter is is 2 3/8's inches.
b) Height is 5 1/2 inches including the top of the fuze head.
c) Weight is 1 1/2 lbs approximately with the fuze
2) The body of the grenade itself is made out of 18 guage steel or .05 inches.
3) It takes the M206A2 "bursting" fuze assembly with a time delay of around 4 to 5 seconds.
4) Charge is 15 ounces of White Phosphorus. Which when exposed to air immediately ignites to 5,000 degrees.
5) The M34 is also type classified as a "CHEMICAL" Grenade along with the CS, CN, CN-DM (<Not to be ever used again!!!), M18's and AN-8's grenades.


The M34 is a multi-pupose "Chemical" hand grenade. This grenade can be used as a smoke producer for signalling, Incendiary effects, and/or as an anti-personnel weapon and it can also do these things while being launched from the end of a Rifle or Carbine too. The M34 can be rifle launched by using the same "Cradle" or "Projector"as was used back during WWII and the Korean War and used with the ones that fits the M26 series of grenades, the illuminating Grenade and the Mk1, Mk. IIA1or A2. The cradle or projector that one of the above aforementioned grenades fits on is called the: Adapter, grenade projection, M1A2. These are launched via a Grenade Launching Blank (GLB). Both the M16A1's and M14's had this ability to launch grenades during the Vietnam War.

This quickly changed for the Army and Marines to the "Grenade, Rifle: Smoke WP, M19A1 which only held 8.5 ounces of WP and only for a very short time at that.

Then during the late 1950's experiments were being conducted on a 40mm grenade to be launched from a single shot launcher. I will now tell you that us going to an M-79 was the wrong way to go. With a 40mm diameter grenade you are restricted to that launcher and you are limited in the future to do anykind of increasing the explosive and fragmentation capability. Rifle Grenades do not cause you any restrictions what-so-ever with a diameter restriction or length, and this in turn make them much more powerful than a 40mm shot out from a M203. With a little practice you can select certain men in a company to do nothing more than to fight and launch R/Gs at the enemy with some degree of accuracy do to training. Just a thought from little old me. Now the only People I know of who did use the cradle/projector was RT Vermont, or at least dabled in the idea of having one.

See here for some pictures of launching WP's from the end of the M16A1.: www.onetao.com


The average 1960's male could throw this almost 3 lb. grenade an average distance of approximately 35 meters. The M34 WP grenade has a bursting area of approximately 35 meters as well. Kind of cutting it close wouldn't you say. Although if I needed to throw an M34 at an enemy group charging at me, I'd be just a little excited and coincidently add a few more meters to that "average distance"!

On the M34, there is an asbestos gasket that provides a seal for the joint between the fuze well and the fuze. The 18 gauge steel is scored with grooves to assure a uniform break up of the casing.

MACVSOG used these on a regular basis inorder to give out a position in relation to yours on the map. Now then, there is a problem with using "Willie Pete" inside a large rainforest and jungle (which can grow as high as 250+feet from the bottom. Now, between the ground and to the top of the first layer , there is hardly any air movement. Therefore, the smoke from a WP rises up from the ground within a few seconds and stays predominantely where it was thrown. However, when the smoke begins to ride higher up the Jungle it is now subjected to atmospheric winds. This means that it is now starting to move with the wind.

More to come on the M34, or at least a little.--------------------------------------------