Whats the best site for South Vietnamese and Cambodian army stuff

[hochiminhtrail]

now we can see the design of the CAO DAI ?/ INFANTRY? beret insignia on NTS leaflet, it s only a flame and a sword, it was never really clear to me what the design was.

Sword in vietnam have a very important meaning, the vietnamese have their own excalibur story in their history, the sword helped them fighting the Chinese invaders.

you can google and search the lake of the restored sword (Hoa Kim lake in Hanoi), it s basicaly the story that a turtel who would show up out of the Hoa Kim lake with a sword when the country is in danger (mostly at that time chinese invaders), everybody knows this story in vietnam, from north to south, and it s century old.

So the sword would be a perfect South Vietnamese rally insignia against communist North Vietnam who were supplied by their thousand year old ennemy China, or in the early days of the end of the french involvemnt it would have meant against communist China and the Viet Minh.

So a sword is not just a Cao Dai symbol, but a truly national Vietnamese symbol that can be used politicaly as a ralying emblem.

i think that this is very important and lets keep that in mind

so im even more inclined to say that the design is maybe similar to the Coa Dai symbol of the french period, but a sword and a flame is a national Vietnamese emblem, rather then just CAO DAI.

Alex

[Beezman]

Hi guys,

very interesting topic indeed. This Cao Dai enigma has always bothered me.

Here is a new approach that might help solving the problem: if we admit that the badge is indeed Cao Dai, then ARVN troops should not wear it.

We all now for a fact that the last pattern of cap badge, which appeared around 1967, was worn as a beret device in the last stages of the war by ARVN troops.

These devices existed in Cap size and beret size:


And here is an example of a Lieutenant wearing a bullion version on his beret:


So, in the years before 1967, if the controversial badge is indeed Cao Dai, ARVN soldiers should be seen wearing the 1st or 2nd pattern badge on their berets:



But I have never seen any photo showing these devices worn on berets. All of the pre-1967 photos of ARVN soldiers that I know of show the "Cao Dai" insignia being worn on tan or brown berets. So, if the badge is indeed Cao Dai, we should have lots of photos showing ARVN soldiers wearing something else. Does anybody have a photo showing this? I do not think so, but I am ready to be proved wrong

[hochiminhtrail]

from Stanley Karnov book page 222

landsdale also helped Diem to outsmart his domestic adversaries. He nipped General Nguyen Van hinhs planned coup d etat in the bud, for example, by hustling his chief lieutnants off on a trip to Manila.
And when the Coa Dai and Hoa Hao defied the regime , Landsdale bribed several o f their leaders to rally to Diem.
General Minh Duong van Minh a Diem loyalist finally sudddued the sects in early 56.

so here we can argue that the Cao Dai fighters still existed under Diem, but i still think that if they were subbdued their paramilitary fighting force would have been incorporated in the regular army.

page 223

nearly 2000 defeated Binh Xuyen, Hoa Hao and Cao dai fighters joined the underground Communsits forces .

from what i have been reading there was a schism with the sects in the mid 50s,the ones that were bribed into the South Vietnamse regime and the ones who fought against it with the Viet cong

Hanoi tried to reassemble the anti South Vietnamese sects into the VC organisation at the begining of the 60s

i ll hope this litel piece of history might explain the South vietnamese govermental approach to the problem of the sects.

Alex

[Jeff Ashenfelter]

Mike, nice seal set that you posted. IMO this is one of the hardest to find berets that there is.
I have found a few more pics which are germain to our discussion of the Cao Dai beret device.The first one is a ribbon cutting ceremony, pay close attention to the two officers on the left side of the pic.The officer with the peaked cap wears the 2nd model of the officers insignia and the officer next to him wears a black beret with a ornate bullion Cao dai beret device. Since the peaked cap insignia by this officer was discontinued in about 67 we can presume that this photo was taken sometime before or on 1967. If the Cao Dai was an army insignia then why the two different insignia exhibited in this picture. To me it seems that logic would dictate that this is two seperate units! After all the RF+PF units were incorporated into the ARVN at this time which some units of Cao Dai were retained. I have only seen a few pics of black Cao dai berets being worn and this is one of them.

[Jeff Ashenfelter]

closeup!

[Jeff Ashenfelter]

This next shot although not very clear shows what appears to be a group of students by the rank on the individual in the front with the peaked cap. The interesting thing is the 4th mod beret insignia just visible over the head in the soldier near the front.. Under scrutiny you can make out 2 Cao Dai beret devices worn by others in the shot wearing a darker shade of beret than the others.
This picture shows that these beret insignia were in wear simultaneously, why? if they were the same unit which I doubt!

[hochiminhtrail]

i think the best way of finding out is to ask ARVN veterans, i mean there are enough web sites in the US of ARVN veterans if we can ask them that might help, but we need more then one confirmation on this subject.

Alex

[Jeff Ashenfelter]

I don't know if you can make it out but here it is!

[Jeff Ashenfelter]

Another

[Jeff Ashenfelter]

Here is another shot of a Cao Dai troop with a rarer hand sewn cotton in gold for officers. Note no rank devices.

[Jeff Ashenfelter]

Here is the back of this photo. Hopefully someone can translate the writing. Perhaps there will be some helpful information.

[Jeff Ashenfelter]

Here is another of a Cao Dai officer. Note the rank pips for Dai-uy. Why is it that in every Cao Dai pic that I own you never see any other ribbons or awards, only rank and that is rare. This seems to me to fall into the reasoning of the RF PF affiliation. Although they were officially a part of the ARVN control they obviously were not allowed the same considerations as the main forces were.
Political appointments, secondary RF + PF responsibities. Regional and local power sharing and student and military school affiliations all seem plausible, but at least to me not early infantry or army insignia. Jeff

[VerKuilen Ager]

Perhaps I missed it in the previous 72 pages, but didn't see a closeup of the metal version. Here's one, albeit with a very poor match of the strike and the cutout.
Also, here is a quote from Gary Murtha's book of 1992, Republic of Vietnam Insignia & History, which speaks to the issue of the mixed insignia shown in some of the previous photos.

"CAO DAI ARMY BADGE
This badge is often mistaken as being an ARMY badge. There is a half truth to this. After the Geneva Conference Vo Nguyen Giap forged a single army in the North. Unlike North Vietnam the South was cursed with private military forces. Besides the SVN National Army there existed three independent forces, the Cao Dai and Hoa Hao were religious groups while the Binh Xuyen, controlled gambling, opium trade and prostitution. The Cao Dai was the oldest religious group, dating to the early 20's. Membership totaled 1.5 to 2 million, most of them peasants living in the Northwest section of Saigon. The Cao Dai Army consisted of some 30,000 troops. Swayed by bribes from Premier Diem, General Trinh Minh led his men into the ARVN and became a Brigadier General. Even after they joined the ARVN you could still see them wearing their Cao Dai insignia. Also seen but rarely encountered is the gold (brass) metal insignia for Officer. Silver badge is for Enlisted. Also comes in Gold (Officer) and Silver (Enlisted) bullion beret badges. I have seen a gold bullion beret badge where the circle was a wreath. Presumedly for a high ranking Officer."

[hochiminhtrail]

thanks for posting, its a very intersting account, i would have thought the the Cao dai would have been incorporated into the ARVN, meaning that all wear ARVN insignias.

I would like an account from a vietnamse Veteran point of view

allways open for new theories

but still a mistery why a II trooper with a Cao dai badge?? and a Hai phong soldeir with belong to the sect is even weirded

By the way there is ARVN commemoration day today, does anybody know about it?

at least thats what i heard, not sure if it only a local thing in my area, or if it general, i might ask some veterans today

Alex.

[nguoi tien su]

Jeff,

Very nice posts indeed. I will try to answer point by point.

Post #1069 : Great, we finally agree on something, I would even say circa 62 or 63. On this photo, having both the cap badge and the beret badge is not surprising, as both are for specific headgear, as stated in the Army leaflet of 1966.

Post # 1075 : this photo is a classic of the early studio photo, with the minimum shown. No rank does not mean anything as it is often the case on different photos.

Here is the translation of the back of the photo :
Cam (that's the name)
It is a photo that all the old men should have. So I give it to you to keep the memory of the day when we’ve seen each others in Quang Trung. Your brother. (older brother) Sign : Sau

So what could be Quang Trung?
At first I thought about a province. It is not, but there is a Quang Trung near the Chinese border inside the Cao Bang province. It could be one solution, but nothing final.

Then I worked on the training centers. There is the Quang Trung Training Center (cf : http://www.imnahastamps.com/military/airborne/index.cfm)
That might also be a solution.

Maybe there are some other paths. But the two ideas above are definitely not towards the Cao Daists.

Post #1077, we do not see the part above the pocket, so let's say it is a little be quick to have conclusions. And once again, 55-64 studio photos often lack details.

The only really interesting post is #1071. Mixture of so called Cao Dai badges with for sure ARVN badges. I would be very interested to know if there are any dates.

This picture shows that these beret insignia were in wear simultaneously, why? if they were the same unit which I doubt!

So I can imagine Jeff gloating behind his screen!
Hey, I would do the same !

Still, I do recon this is a great photo, the only tangible clue so far for the pro Cao Dai badge.
Yet… it is not final either. Here is a photo taken during the transition in the VNAF badges.


You can clearly see many solid badges AND VNAF birds on the cap. Only because it is transition. I think that point should also be taken into account., don’t you?

About Murtha’s book, many interesting and precise descriptions are helping the collectors. But as Jeff says, you can’t always trust what’s in the books. For example, Murtha says that silver 1963 VNMC badges do not exist, which is false.

VerKuilen Ager, I would be very interested in seeing a better shot of the wings on your photo!

NTS