Whats the best site for South Vietnamese and Cambodian army stuff

[nguoi tien su]

Jeff,

Before going back to Saigon, I took a photo of the back of the badges we spoke about 2 or 3 months ago.



Cheers.

NTS

[hochiminhtrail]

Hi NTS

well as you are going back to SNAFU land please ask poeple you know about it, not just the dealers, but older poeple who served in the ARVN, somebody must know what the badge the transition time ect...

i will try to research it from the few vets that i know here, they are mostly rangers and paras who were drafted in the 70s, so maybe they will not recount the early badges.

If we agree that we cant just trust what is written, then we have go dig a little deeper.

Jeff great fotos you showed us as i say i m ready to change my mind when we got all the clues together, i think we are coming closer.

cheers

Alex

[hochiminhtrail]

well after a long party with some veterans i was able to get one account, most of the guys who served in the 70s could not recall the insignia at all, they thought it was the THU DUC military academy. Or the Dalat School, i allways tried to explain the Cao Dai might have worn it, but to no avail.

Then one of my friends who lived in Thai Ninh as a child in the 50s and 60s did recall it as an unofficial ARVN "Cao Dai badge ", not really sure what he ment by unofficial.
But i have to say if i havent given the word "Cao Dai" nobody would have recall it.
So i think it s a good point for the Cao Dai theory, but i want more testemonies from poeple in Vietnam, and even if i have to go to Thay Ninh myself next time.

Alex

[hochiminhtrail]

here an early brown beret with gold buillon, this is from a fellow collector on US Militaria forum.

[hochiminhtrail]

beret

[VerKuilen Ager]

Jeff,

VerKuilen Ager, I would be very interested in seeing a better shot of the wings on your photo!

NTS

One of the many hauled back by Clem Kelly on his Merchant Marine trips to RVN in the 1960s and '70s. From the Phuoc Hung shop in Saigon (see a Flight Engineer on a shop card in the next picture).

[VerKuilen Ager]

Some more. Second and third on the right are hard to make out but are the Radio Operator and Flight Despatcher. Below the Navigator is the Radio Operator/Navigator. These were shot in a Riker mount, hence the cotton fuzzines around the edges.

[thefallenbuddha]

Wow! I take off for three weeks and this just keeps on going. Brilliant!

I don't claim to be an expert on any subject, but from my experience I would have to go with the Cao Dai designation for the insignia in debate.
I haven't been a Vietnam collector for decades, like some of the very knowledgeable folks on this forum, but I have done a lot of interviews with former SVN veterans, predominantly officers, living in exile in the US.
The history and military application of the CaoDai, Hoa Hao, and other sects has always been of interest to me.

For the record, the CaoDai and Hoa Hao both continued to have “private” armed forces through 1975. Particularly in the Mekong Delta, the Hoa Hao was very active. There are many accounts of ARVN convoys being raided during the war and civilian buses being robbed by Hoa Hao and CaoDai militiamen up until the 1980s. The ARVN IV Region Command especially in the late 1960s-70s was notoriously light when it came to dealing with these sects, even when government troops were attacked, since the bulk of these groups were vehemently anti-communist and were perhaps the deciding factor in why the Viet Cong never gained a strong foothold in much of the IV Region throughout the war.

I was lucky enough to do interviews with three different former CaoDai officers. These three all entered military service in the late 1950s – early 60s and continued through to 1975. They were all praciticing CaoDai members from well to do families who first joined different CaoDai paramilitary groups. The CaoDai did have a sizeable standing army, which was at least officially under the umbrella of the government in the early Republic Period. These units were gradually absorbed into the regular ARVN, and indeed each of the three gentlemen I interviewed all were later inducted into the Thu Duc Academy, and were given commissions in the regular ARVN.

The CaoDai and the government, especially in the early 1960s had a rocky relationship as we all know. The CaoDai split into several factions at this time, and those whose forces remained in strong opposition to the government were largely wiped out by the ARVN.

As for the insignia in question, all three gentlemen stated this insignia to be CaoDai insignia. They stated that after much of the CaoDai forces were assimilated into the ARVN and dispersed between different units, many of these former CaoDai troops continued to wear their CaoDai insignia. Indeed, as a personal note, one of the former officers interviewd claimed to have continue to wear the CaoDai badge on his beret through 1975, even though he had served in a regular ARVN quartermaster unit as a Major.

Also, one other side note from these interviews as to possibly why these insignias and berets seem more common than others, is according to one of these gentlemen interviewed because the CaoDai was not overtly thought of by the Communists after the war in the same terms as the ARVN. The Communists were less harsh towards the CaoDai, than they were to the Catholics, and many CaoDai temples were left unscathed when the NVA moved south. So, a possible hypothesis from this would be that there was more of an urgency to destroy one's ARVN insignia than one's CaoDai, resulting in a larger number of the latter surviving. However, this is just speculation on my part.

By the way there is ARVN commemoration day today, does anybody know about it?

at least thats what i heard, not sure if it only a local thing in my area, or if it general, i might ask some veterans today

Alex.

The South Vietnamese Armed Forces Holiday is on June 19th.



Also, with regards to the "ARVN: Life and Death...." book, I felt it was lacking in many respects. If you read the author's foreward, he clearly stated that he omitted numerous interviews from Vietnamese and Americans, which didn't take the book in the direction ( His Interpretation of the ARVN) that he wanted it to. Almost all of his interviews were done with former ARVN enlisted personnel still living in Vietnam, and he virtually ignored ARVN veteran groups in overseas, i.e. in the USA, or speaking to any former ARVN officer's for that matter. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but just that I think interviewing only one group of people and cutting out what doesn't match your opinion isn't going to give you a full sense of the history.

[hochiminhtrail]

Hi thefallenbuddha,

many thanks for the testemonies it helps a lot, so we are narrowing it down but it would be Great if NTS can interview some vets in Vietnam.

yes the south vietnamses army day is on June 19, thats is what i was told, not sure what party i went to , but allways fun to cheer ( jo jo in vietnamese) with Vietnamese

Alex

[Bob Chatt]

Sometime this week, we have a Vietnamese guy who comes in the shop and I will ask him about the Cao Dai insignia. He is a South Vietnamese historian / collector who can be a real pain sometimes but is a fountain of knowledge on the ARVNs. Those on this site Kammo-Man, Spikey and the Fallen Bhudda know who I mean as they have been in the shop when he comes in. He can push you over the edge in a second but I have definately learned a lot, and had certain items that had shaky id's attached to them, that he has positively identified.

[Patrick Dempsey]

Hi F/Buddha,

that is a very good post to return with!

Utterly fascinating.

Many thanks for the additional information, it has cleared up my confusion regarding "later" berets carrying the insignia.

The testimony of the three Gentlemen who wore these insignia through to 1975 is very compelling and has resolved the matter in my own mind.

Have you ever thought of publishing your interviews, or are they for your own archives?

Sometime this week, we have a Vietnamese guy who comes in the shop and I will ask him about the Cao Dai insignia. He is a South Vietnamese historian / collector who can be a real pain sometimes but is a fountain of knowledge on the ARVNs.

Bob,

that would be priceless.


Great discussion and information gents,



Patrick.

[hochiminhtrail]

Hi Bob

that would be great, this is exact what we need.

Alex

[Jeff Ashenfelter]

Fallen Buddha, great information posted, if you ever put your interviews to print, I would be VERY interested in reading them. Some of your ideas seem perfectly plausible to me and it certainly clarify's things in my own mind. Bob are you talking about our old friend NHAYDU? BTW if you still have that VNMC hand sewn flash in your inventory, I will take it. Just let me know the particulars through a PM. Jeff

[Bob Chatt]

Jeff-The sad part is sometimes I would have preferrd it to be Nhay-du. No, this guy is one of those proud Viets, who was probably three or four when the country fell. But,when you get him wound up he talks about how the South will some how rise again, etc.... The upside is, he is a walking encyclopedia about the ARVN's. On the flash, is it on the website? If so you can order it right from there.

[nguoi tien su]

As for the insignia in question, all three gentlemen stated this insignia to be CaoDai insignia. They stated that after much of the CaoDai forces were assimilated into the ARVN and dispersed between different units, many of these former CaoDai troops continued to wear their CaoDai insignia.

Fallenbuddha,

Thanks very much for the informations. That would be very nice to clear this point, even if I would have to admit being wrong ! Hehehe.
I will also try to push on the Vietnamese side, here in the south.

NTS

PS : VerKuilen Ager, thanks for your photo of the wings.