Bavarian Buckle Please Help

[Spike]

Hi everyone,hope all had a good break over the festive season.

Just received this in the mail today,but I'm a little bit concerned about a couple of things,
1. the brass seems light and not the right colour
2. the different angle the prongs are cut at
3. the way the centre has been attached to the box
Can anyone help me out with this buckle to say if it is a genuine piece or have I been ripped off,I hope not my first buckle for the year.
All opinions welcomed,regards
Spike

[Spike]

last pics

[ww1czechlegion]

Hi Spike,

Yes, sorry to say that just like myself, you stumbled onto a bad/reproduction belt buckle. I aquired my first bad one this past year from a "collector widow sale on eBay". Send it back for a full refund if you're able to do such.

Mine didn't have the wire prongs going through the center like yours does. The telltale repro sign is the three vertical solder point holes on the back of yours, just like mine had. No original manufactured one during or before WW1 had 3-vertical solder point holes. The reversed/opposite cut points are also a definite sign of a reproduction buckle. eBay.de has a ton of these buckes always for sale, but they're priced as new made copes at around 12,50 Euros or such.

Here's a link to a recent thread on pickelhaubes.com, where this type was discussed: http://www.pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5493

You'll also note the detail signs on the rondel on the front of buckle: Poor detail to the crown, oakleaf wreath, and the rope border, not because it is worn, but because of a sloppy casting job.

I hope you can get a refund. I found out too late with the fake one I purchased to get a refund.

All the Best,

Alan

[Sergeant 08]

Yes, looks like a repro.

[Gustaf B]

Hey Alan,
Are the roundels cast on these copys? The originals that I have handled all have stamped roundels, if they are cast, this gives another way to tell, if the copiers ever fix the other faults. I never was happy with the stamped belt hook, they were very rare 40 years ago, now they are a dime a dozen.
Best
Gus

[ww1czechlegion]

Hi Gus,

The rondel on my fake Bavarian example looks to be die struck, and has excellent, crisp details. (I'll have to post a photo of it).

The rondel on spike's buckle, from viewing his photos, appears to be a cast rondel. It looks like the details are weak and poorly defined.

Yes, I know what you mean: the stamped out hook attachment area type buckles used to be rare years ago, and now they seem to be found quite frequently.

Spike's buckle also looks to be artificially aged, probably chemically aged on the brass to darken it. A Czech dealer on eBay tries to offer his fake Hessian Buckle, and some sort of naval buckle, both artificially aged similarly. There's a dealer who sets up at both the MAX & S.O.S. who has quite a selection of Imperial buckles, (most of an entire Allstate case full of Imperial & 3rd Reich buckles) and some of the rarer one's he has which I've been tempted by are copies, artificially aged by someone. He has the Mecklenburg copy, brass telegrapher copy examples, etc. They're not cheap, (not priced as a cheap, modern copy) but priced lower than retail to "suck someone" into thinking they're getting a bargain. When asked if he guarantees that they are original, he refuses to guarantee or offer a money back refund.

All the Best,

Alan

[ww1czechlegion]

Here's a photo of the front of my fake Bavarian buckle. The detail is not very good on the rondel, especially on the roping border on the left. One can see the opposite cut points also. I thought I had a reverse side photo, but can't find it at the moment. It must be on another CD. This one has the 3-vertical solder point holes on the backside, and the same one-piece, stamped out type belt hook attachment area as Spike's buckle.

Another fake sign is the belt points are not soldered into the tube of the pin, they are loose, and flop around. Another bad sign.

Alan

[Spike]

Thanks guys for your input and knowledge,I got this off ebay from Austria,it is not the buckle that was advertised,its a shame you can't visit these mongrels and give it to them,if the fella doesn't come to the party I'll let everyone know who he is so no one else gets touched like me.
I bought it for a bit of shopping therapy when the telegraphers buckle on ebay went higher than I could afford,bummer.
I have other buckles coming,hopefully not in the same boat as this one.
Thanks ever so much
Spike

[Chip M]

The shiny steel prongs and bar are a dead give-away. This pattern with the non-soldered prongs was only introduced during the war, but it was never shiny like this. Also, the clipped off ends of the prongs are standard on these fakes.

Chip

[Spike]

Thanks Chip for your input,I have emailed the fella through ebay and privately,no reply as yet,
not looking like I'll get a reply,time well tell
Regards
Spike

[Spike]

Right here we go fellas.
I have waited for over 2 months for this guy to refund me,the buckle originally took 19 days to get to me from Austria.
I have emailed him and he reckons he has not received it,getting rather hot under the collar.
He has since been taken off Ebay,his Ebay name was "troedeltrupp 71 "
His name is Sascha Maltasic,he had 2 email addresses, sascha@gmx.at & sascha-franz@gmx.net
I sent the buckle to his brothers place who is
Peter Muckenhuber
Romerstrabe 101
4020 linz
Austria

I would rather visit him,which at this point it is not possible.
Everybody be careful if you happen to have any dealings with this ass,he is not a honest person and would hate for anyone else to be stung like me.
If anyone lives close to this address,can you pay him a visit for me and I'll buy you a beer or a dozen when I'm hopefully over there next year (planning on going on a dig)
Thanks fellas,keep an eye out.
Regards
Spike

[Gustaf B]

Hey Spike,
You did not happen to pay with paypal did you? If so, you can try to do a charge back.
Best
Gus

[Spike]

Hi Gus
Yes I did pay through Paypal,I'll have to look into the charge back.
Thanks for the heads up
Regards
Spike

[ww1czechlegion]

Hello Spike,

You can certainly try on the charge back. I think that PayPal has a 60 or 90 day cutoff on the charge back claims.

Best of Luck with everything!

Alan

[Gustaf B]

Hey Alan,
You also posted the restricitons to reimbursments on Pickelhaubes.com that I was unaware of. A lack of insurance may be a problem, but in this case, he was sent a bogus bill of goods, and received no product for his payment as it was returned. If ebay and paypal will not support a cheated buyer, then they have very little back up for the buyer.
Best
gus