Pickelhaube Cockade Questions

[C. Roelens]

I tried looking it up on Col J's, and the Kaiser's Bunker. Unless I missed it I couldn't find a difinitive answer... maybe there isn't one? I mostly collect steel, but I did pick up several Pickelhaube's last year. I have a 1915 dated, B.A. 1V marked Infantry helmet with all steel hardware. It is complete except cockades and chinstrap.

I have two black, red, and white cockades, but their both different in color and size. The one pictured on the left is smaller and more red in color. The outside center hole protrudes out far enough so the chinstrap fitting will not fit. This cockade however, does match in size with the black and white cockade on the helmet, and, with all of the other known original cockades on my other spiked helmets.

The cockade pictured on the right is more orange in color, just a little bit larger, and fits perfectly on the helmet.

Were all of these cockades made exact in size? Are the cockades more red in color considered to be reproductions? Could it be aging?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Chuck

[C. Roelens]

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[C. Roelens]

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[C. Roelens]

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[Chip M]

Chuck,

None of my cockades have that "lip". It looks like both pieces are good, but the left one may be for some other type of helmet. Why don't you run it by the guys on the Pickelhaubes forum? Someone there is likely to know what the reason is for this type.

Chip

[Hoss]

Chip,Chuck
Isnt the one with the flare from a Ersatz Steel Pickelhaube?

Eric

[Hoss]

Chip,Chuck
Isnt the one with the flare from a Ersatz Steel Pickelhaube?

Eric

Gents
I think there also found on untouched Felt Pckels too.
Eric

[C. Roelens]

Chuck,

None of my cockades have that "lip". It looks like both pieces are good, but the left one may be for some other type of helmet. Why don't you run it by the guys on the Pickelhaubes forum? Someone there is likely to know what the reason is for this type.

Chip

Thanks Chip... will do. The larger cockade measures 2 inches straight across the back from one tip to the other. All of my other cockades measure 1/8th of an inch less.

Chuck

[C. Roelens]

Chip,Chuck
Isnt the one with the flare from a Ersatz Steel Pickelhaube?

Eric

I don't know Eric, I'm hoping someone can answer these questions.

Chuck

[PlaceOfBayonets]

Hey Chuck, you looking to restore some cockades to your halb?

W.

[Hoss]

Chuck
Iam pretty sure its off a steel Pickel. Its quite a rare puppy.

Eric

[Hoss]

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[Hoss]

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[joerookery]

Someone wrote me and asked me to give an opinion on this. First I think Chip was right and you should focus on pickelhaubes.com

The questions about cockades are legion. There is not even an agreed-upon spelling nor name. I think we still have a great deal to learn. I don't think anyone has a lock on the topic but it certainly has led to some opinions in the past that were probably formed by poor documentation like Bowman from the 1980s.I have actually withdrawn my article on the subject rather than listen to some of this.

There were many many types of these cockades. Sizes changed over time but the ones you are looking at generally fall into the 48 mm category. The European system is millimeters and works far better than inches when it comes to helmets. There are two questions. Are they all supposed to be exactly 48 mm? Did they all have this lip that you are showing? The first question is answered only by the argument about Probe samples. Was there a sample that all cockades were supposed to clone? Therefore all of the correct cockade should clone this perfect example exactly. The second question is far easier. There were many different types of lips. Some had no lip -- some had a reinforcement around the center hole. Some were flared -- some were not -- some have notches -- some did not.



I think there is a pretty good layout of a metal "kit helmet" at this website:
http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/BKa.htm
you can see that these are flared and have- notches. From what I have been able to research the manufacturers of the various ersatz helmets might have used this style of cockade to improve the fit helmets made of metal. It was a real selling point in their letters. A higher lip would tighten the fit of the m91. then of course you have the issue of all of these cockades laying around and used pretty much indiscriminately. Therefore I think it might be difficult to attribute a raised lip to specifically this kind of helmet or that kind of helmet.

I do not plan to expand upon the probe system here. I hope what I have written has been of some help -- I would consider moving other questions to the pickelhaube's forum.

[Hoss]

Well, Joe settled everything!
I for one am heading over to Pickelhauben.net

Eric