WW1 German Ersatz bayonet EB33

[echofix]

Hello, I need informations about this Ersatz bayonet and markings. Thank you for any help! 731.jpg

[phild]

It is not a variation that I have ever seen. If it is real it is very rare! I also do not know the markings but will see what I can find out.

[echofix]

Hi Phild, your help is welcome. It comes from a very old collection, but can't get any infos. ????

[phild]

I wish that I could help. I’m surprised no one or really several people have not commented. Whether it is real or fake, I would think that this one merits a lot of interest. If it fake, it is a fantasy piece I would think, but very well done. If it is a known period variation, like I said before, it must one of the rarest German Bayonets of that era.

[Jeff Noll]

OK, you have shamed me into responding. To my eye you have a textbook #33 Ersatz bayonet that has had finger grooves added. I will not speculate whether they were added period or contemporary. The shallowness of the finger grooves tells me they were not factory. The paint looks good to my eye but I would reserve my opinion only after a hands-on evaluation. The patina in the unit markings and wear leads me to believe the paint is period., The unit marking is another thing. M.S.A. doesn't really correlate to anything but being a wartime application I would say it translates to:
Maschinengewehr-Scharfschützen-Abteilung.
This unit was never covered in a Official Regulation covering the stamping of hand-weapons (the last Prussian Regulation was in 1909). Since there was no Abteilung Nr. 186 this number must be the Waffe Nr. and the 12 the number of the Abteilung. As we all know the application of these markings was officially discontinued in 1916.
In my opinion this is not a fantasy piece. Having chased MG militaria for years if offered I would buy this bayonet without reservation.

[ww1czechlegion]

Yes, a super rare ersatz bayonet with equally super-rare marking.

You may be surprised how much you might be offered for it.

I sold a much more commonly found ersatz bayonet with ersatz MG Battalion markings a few years ago, and I got $1,000.00 for it. It was "Carter #56" and the type known to have been used by Wurttemburg MG Battalion.

Best Wishes,

Alan

[phild]

I for one really appreciate both of you sharing your knowledge and opinions on this one. Everything said sounds very reasonable to me.

[motojosh]

EB32-EB33 bayonets have the number 98 stamped on the pommel designating that they were made to fit the Gewehr 98 / Kar 98. With the "86" removed the unit marking would be 1.M.S.A.12
Photo from The Collectors Book of German Bayonets Part II by the late Roy Williams.

-Josh

[phild]

Great catch on the number! So 86 is really 98 and has nothing to do with the unit stamp other than proximity. I fully agree now seeing your photo. IMO that placement would have never been selected by a faker but would be very typical of a German armorer and have seen other similar unit stampings conflicting with existing numbers and markings on German arms and equipment

[echofix]

Hello, Thanks to Phild,Jeff, Alan and finally Josh!
Sorry, I was absent from the forum thinking there would be no answer to this marking puzzle and finally a unit marking is found and the bayonet has its own marking 98 stamped on all EB33.
So this unit: 1.M.S.A.12 has ever existed?
I am a beginner and I appreciate your help.
I know Carter #56 are very expensive, so this Carter #33 is probably a rare one too.. But there is still some expert that don't know!
Hereafter the response from Christain Méry a French author well known for his many books on bayonets:
Good evening, it is a curious piece that I hesitated to present in my book and which questions many collectors. Unknown marking, are unusual location. I mean, we don't know.

[echofix]

Of course!! it's a big fake!!! I'm happy i'm not the owner!! but thank you with all.. and take care...

[echofix]

Fake ! fake! and fake...

[Jeff Noll]

I'll buy this fake.

[ww1czechlegion]

The bayonet would be on any collector's "want" list to buy. You would have no problem selling it if you ever wished to do so.

[motojosh]

Of course!! it's a big fake!!! I'm happy i'm not the owner!! but thank you with all.. and take care...

A unit mark being stamped next to an existing mark doesn't make it a fake. Typically when a new marking was added to an item any existing markings would be crossed out or stippled out, but this didn't always occur.

There's all sorts of variations encountered in wartime unit markings, as an example here's a few S.98 n.A. marked to Reserve Infantry Regiments. Only the one on the left is marked per regulations with the proper format and italic R, in the other two the armorers were likely making due with what stamps they had available.