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**GdC26** · 04-05-2020, 03:31 PM

Hi Willi,
If the loops are all original to the tunic I would not be surprised if this belonged to an honorary chef, general a la suite or royalty entitled to wear the uniform of the battalion : four breast stars and a large medal bar is not a typical set up for a serving field grade officer.

Do the loops seem original in hand (have they for example been stitched through the liner? That is not de definitive indication of later additions - I've seen it on a Großherzog von Baden tunic of approximately the same era ras yours reportedly is - but it could indicate later addition.

Have you checked for pics of Chefs etc. around the turn of the century? And have you checked the area with the buttons on the lower rear of the tunic? Sometimes, there are pockets there and there may be a tiailor label there.

Btw, why is this a pre 1890 tunic in your view? Can we see pics of the full tunic?
Kind regards,
Sandro

**GdC26** · 04-05-2020, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by GdC26 View Post

Hi Willi,
If the loops are all original to the tunic I would not be surprised if this belonged to an honorary chef, general a la suite or royalty entitled to wear the uniform of the battalion : four breast stars and a large medal bar is not a typical set up for a serving field grade officer.

Do the loops seem original in hand (have they for example been stitched through the liner? That is not de definitive indication of later additions - I've seen it on a Großherzog von Baden tunic of approximately the same era ras yours reportedly is - but it could indicate later addition.

Have you checked for pics of Chefs etc. around the turn of the century? And have you checked the area with the buttons on the lower rear of the tunic? Sometimes, there are pockets there and there may be a tiailor label there.

Btw, why is this a pre 1890 tunic in your view? Can we see pics of the full tunic?
Kind regards,
Sandro

https://www.alamy.com/deutsch-prinz-...211456755.html

**Willi Z.** · 04-08-2020, 11:34 AM

Hi Sandro, thanks for the guidance and information. I am away right now, so I can't take a photo. I do recall the loops were not sewn through the lining and all of them were sewn by the same hand and thread. I do recall they were of higher quality than other loops I have on other Dunkelblau uniforms, and did not present any evidence of medals being worn for any length of time, unlike my Luftwaffe uniforms. Not sure if that helps.

The tunic most certainly has the wear and damage from having been worn.

**GdC26** · 04-08-2020, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post

Hi Sandro, thanks for the guidance and information. I am away right now, so I can't take a photo. I do recall the loops were not sewn through the lining and all of them were sewn by the same hand and thread. I do recall they were of higher quality than other loops I have on other Dunkelblau uniforms, and did not present any evidence of medals being worn for any length of time, unlike my Luftwaffe uniforms. Not sure if that helps.

The tunic most certainly has the wear and damage from having been worn.

Hi Willi, pleasure, let’s see the pics. Inconsistent wear could of tunic and loops could mean the loops are a later addition, but lets see. The Alamy link I posted shows Prinz Freidrich Agugust (as he then was) as Generalmajor à la suite des Kgl. Preußischen Garde-Schützen-Bataillons at least shows that such tunics existed.

https://www.alamy.com/deutsch-prinz-...211456755.html

Kind regards,
Sandro

**Willi Z.** · 04-15-2020, 11:52 AM

Sandro, here are some more photos.

I have no unrealistic expectations. I bought it at a modest price, and just as nice uniform for display.

Attached Files

**GdC26** · 04-16-2020, 10:03 AM

Hi Willi,
Hard to be definitive on the basis of these pics, but best I can judge these loops look ok to me. A further confirmation that these might be contemporary to the tunic is what looks to be uneven spacing for the various breast stars, as if they were made to accommodate specific awards.

Have you considered contacting the military museum at Dreseden to see if they have good pics of then Prince Friedrich August wearing the Garde Schützen tunic? The news paper pic I found on the web is too blurry to permit identification of further loops beyond the ones holding the two stars evident in the pics you posted. The second pic (very small) shows a serving officer of the unit - he wears some officer crosses, but not four and none as large as breaststars (I know, hard to be definitive from one pic, but as a rule of thumb, for the awards of German states, officer crosses, not breaststars, where the norm for Obersts and Oberstleutnants).

You could also consider writing to the DHM in Berlin, to solicit their views. My experiences with, for example, the HGW in Vienna on similar requests have been very good.

Best, Sandro

Attached Files

**Willi Z.** · 04-16-2020, 10:38 AM

Thanks Sandro, here are a few more.

I haven't done any research on it yet, as I didn't think it might be unique.

Attached Files

**GdC26** · 04-16-2020, 11:01 AM

These loops look good to me. I see little evidence of them having been used much, but that does not mean that they're not original to the tunic. Does the tunic itself exhibit significant wear, or does it have the look of an item that only was brought out on special occasions.

And can you share pics of the interior? Any evidence of any Taylor etc. labels having ever been present (neck area, inner pocket etc)?
Brest,
Sandro

**GdC26** · 04-16-2020, 12:16 PM

Similar reinforced loops on a (admittedly later) Wilhelm II tunic on display at the DHM in Berlin (or at least it was when I visited it many moons ago).
I have several pics of older tunics on display I the smame museum (Bismarck, Kaiser Friedrich), but on a quick view the lighting conditions I which these were taken were too poor to properly discern the loops.

Hope of use,
Sandro

Attached Files

Kaiser Wilhelm II (3).jpg (78.5 KB, 25 views)

**Willi Z.** · 05-06-2020, 01:24 PM

Sandro, sorry for the delay in getting back to you. No sign of a tailor label, or removed one. There is a "III" in each arm pit, with light wear inside. A repair to the right rear shoulder which IMO is pretty crude. On each cuff there appears to have been some sort of button.

Attached Files

**GdC26** · 05-09-2020, 10:58 AM

Hi Willi,
No sweat, and thanks for the additional pics. All looks good to me, the repair may well be post-use, and the extra button is interesting. It made me look at the Friedrich August pic again, which if you look carefully, has a different set up of the lower Litzen and button. It does not match the set up on your tunic, but it is noteworthy nevertheless. I can see no evidence of it in the pics, and the color is right for Garde Schützen battalion, but any evidence that the collar and cuffs have been added at a later date?

Czerny's just auctioned n old Italian collection that included Wilhelm II's Garde Schützen bataillon tunic and cap: https://www.czernys.com/asta-100-1/?o=88282 It may be worth comparing that with yours a bit (including hte loops shown in pic 5), even if yours appears to be of older vintage.

Always hard to judge from pics, but nothing I've seen debunks my thought that this tunic may have been for a general a la suite or honorary commander of Garde Schützen bataillon. The liner indeed looks to be of hte style used on late 19th century liners, and the "III" may be consistent with that if the person concerned was entitled to wear different regimental tunics and his valet needed to be able to tell them apart (as can be noted on tunics of royalty, which often had some designation to tell them apart - the Wilhelm II tunic auctioned at Czerny' refers).

Personally, I would write to DHM or the museum in Dresden to obtain their views, and see if they have pics to share.

Best,
Sandro

**GdC26** · 05-09-2020, 11:32 AM

Not the same unit, but the second pic shows what I have in mind. This comes from an album of members of the westfälisches Jäger-Bataillon Nr. 7 aus Bückeburg I once owned. The picture in hte middle shows the honorary commander of the unit, Georg Fürst zu Schaumburg Lippe (see Rangliste 1907. p 310).

Attached Files

2.jpg (166.0 KB, 10 views)

**GdC26** · 05-09-2020, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by GdC26 View Post

I can see no evidence of it in the pics, and the color is right for Garde Schützen battalion, but any evidence that the collar and cuffs have been added at a later date?

Theoretically, the black velvet cuffs match JB 12, 13 and 15, units that did not have the Garde listen on the cuffs. If these have been added, that could explain the button imprints on hte cuffs - but then all buttons must have been switched out (silver to gold, easy fix) and the collar must have been swapped out (black velvet swapped for red with garde litzen). All three swap outs (addition of the cuff patches on the cuffs, replacement of the buttons and swap out of the collar) are likely to leave visible traces. Any of those present? As said, I see no evidence of that (except, maybe, for hte missing button), but those things are generally hard to judge from pics if professionally done.

See: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...,_Tafel_10.jpg vs. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...,_Tafel_10.jpg

Bar anything like that, as said, I think royalty or honorary commander.

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