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Not QUITE "Anonymous" Any More-- A WW1 Bavarian Officer's 7 Ribbon Bar

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    #1

    Not QUITE "Anonymous" Any More-- A WW1 Bavarian Officer's 7 Ribbon Bar

    This was today's Big E Show "find." I rescued it off a Third Reich tunic where it had no business being-- the dealer actually let me have it without insisting it was a "set." And, for an exceptionally good price, too--so I am a happy camper today.

    The little "spot" on the MVO ribbon isn't a hole from a missing device, it's just a rubbed spot. We have: Bavarian Military Merit Order-WW1 frontline ribbon, Prussian Iron Cross 2nd Class 1914 combatant, bavarian 1905 Luitpold Jubilee Medal, Bavarian Long Service (XXIV) award, Prussian Red Eagle Order (4th Class), what could be either a Prussian Crown Order (4th Class) or a Württemberg Friedrich Order-Knight (1st Class), and a real help in the identification, the 1897 Kaiser Wilhelm Centanary Medal--which was not often awarded to non-1870 Bavarian military personnel (and WAS listed in the Bavarian Militärhandbücher)
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    #2
    The "Feuerwehr" carmine backing glows (quite correctly) vivid dayglo "lifeguard" orange under a blacklight. Note the flat pin.
    Attached Files

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      #3
      A first pass had this down to FOUR officers. Since one of them was a Max Joseph AND Pour le Merite winner, I was rootin' for him, but alas, it was not to be!

      This belonged to one of TWO officers--

      Eduard Fahrmbacher (1870-after 1926) Bavarian Infantry Regiment 4, SekLt 6.3.90, PremLt 17.3.97, Hauptmann 28.10.05, Major 28.10.12. In 1914 he was commanding 10./Inf Regt 4 with 1905 Jubilee, XXIV, Pruss Red Eagle 4, Wtbg Friedrich Knt 1st, and the 1897. The Honor Rank List gives NO regimental level or staff commands for him, so apparently he never commanded more than a Battalion. He SHOULD have been promoted Oberstleutnant on 14.12.17, and is listed as "Oberstleutnant aD," but because he is NOT in the April 1918 Bavarian Seniority List, he must have actually retired end of 1917/beginning of 1918--- most peculiar indeed! He received a Bavarian MVO4 with Crown and Swords (initial award) 2 January 1915.

      The other "suspect" was

      Otto Münsterer (1873-23.3.1920), a cavalry officer. In 1914 he was commanding 3./Chevaulegers Regiment 4, with 1905 Jubilee, Prussian Red Eagle and Crown Orders 4th, and the 1897.

      He was SekLt 4.3.95, Oberlt 8.3.05, Rittmeister 7.3.10, and Major 17.1.17.

      He received a MVO4X 16.11.14, and the Crown to that 5.4.17. The Honor Rank List gives his last WW1 position as Adjutant of Generalkommando XV. Reserve Korps.

      Comment

        #4
        As usual quite impressive Rick,

        all from some ribbons! Amazing! Congratulations to that nice find!

        Best regards

        Daniel

        Comment

          #5
          Hey Rick!

          Nice bar, I missed this one. Very nice!

          Comment

            #6
            Two questions Rick:

            1.) Why no swords for the MVO?
            2.) Why (maybe) a Friedrichsorden 1st class, not the 2nd?
            Couldnt it be a faded Long Service Dec? The back looks like a darker blue.

            Nice find! Congrats!!!

            Comment

              #7
              There are often no devices at all on the Bavarian MVO/MVK ribbons, even into the 1930s.

              He was a Bavarian, and has the Bavarian Long Service ribbon in 4th place. The next to last ribbon is darker on back, but still sky blue and not dark blue. I only know the classes for these ribbons because I looked through the entire Bavarian army for everybody that had a ribbon that these COULD have been.

              In this case, it was the lowly 1897 medal that was the key-- MANY officers had the pair of Prussian or Prussian/Württemberg Orders, but only four ALSO had the 1897 medal-- and I could scratch two of them because of 1914 Bavarian peacetime Orders.

              Comment

                #8
                OK! Thanks!

                Comment

                  #9
                  Hmmmmmmm.

                  Very Impressive, Herr Lundström.

                  Yes, very impressive indeed.

                  Amost....too impressive!

                  After all, who has the ability to challenge this arcane knowledge. Why, you could be making all of this up, and who would know the difference?

                  Of course, one would never encounter that situation among those whom you derisively dismiss as "zinky boys"! The collectors in that field are known for their independent thinking, their ability to make their own judgements, and their determination to reject the herd mentality!

                  I am a fine example of that, if I do say so myself.

                  Unless of course we were talking about a World War II German Army paratrooper's badge. Then I would want Eric Queen and Prosper Keating to look at it. Or, um...maybe a Knight's Cross. Then I'd ask Gordon Williamson to have a close look. Or a German Cross in gold or silver, or one of the Party Long service badges, or anything else that was awarded in the Third Reich. Then I'd ask Detlev. Or helmets, because I know I'd ask Bill Shea for his thoughts. Probably do that with any uniform or cap too. I'd also run them all by Brian Maederer and Steve Wolfe. Just to be sure.

                  But other than those extemely limited examples, it is a field for independent thinkers, who would never just blindly accept information being offered without a penetrating critical analysis!

                  So I trust you see now why I am so...shall we say...SKEPTICAL of this apparent ability of yours to spin gold out of straw, to create a compelling human history from a few bits of ribbon ??!!

                  So now, I will challenge you on this amazing bit of militaria alchemy that you so easily perform, in the same way that such pronouncements and claims to expertise are challenged in that other field of German collecting:

                  Herr Lundström: "Do you really think so?

                  Because if you do, well, then...O.K. That's good enough for me!

                  Alright, then, Rick, I'm sorry to have been so tough on you. But someone had to inject a dose of real world reality into this never-never land you call "The Imperial Forum". I'm just sorry it had to be me.

                  Just be grateful I didn't bring out...THE COMFY CHAIR!

                  Comment

                    #10
                    I hope.............

                    .............. the goat doesn't go Poo on the carpet!

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Orrrrrrrrrrr..... you can spend thirty plus years (and a good Chunka Change) and buy all those period reference books fo' yo'sef while yo learn Sutterlin, too...

                      Hmmm, time for MORE pictures of Admiral Böning's stuff, I think! Maybe some of his personal gifts from some guy named Kapitän zur See Donuts?

                      Nyah huh huh huh hah!

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Elephants Never Forget

                        I would like to thank Daniel for "information received" which now establishes that this belonged to FAHRMBACHER and not to Münsterer.

                        Not bad, rescued off a Feuerwehr Wachtmeister tunic!

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Rick,

                          Sorry, you lost me with the reference to the glowing backing material. Why would glowing material be correct?

                          Chip

                          Comment

                            #14
                            People unfamiliar with blacklighting assume that any and all glowing indicates a fake. That is most assuredly NOT true, which was the point here in mentioning how this old color reacts. The only one to watch out for is modern white, which glows bright electric blue--

                            as will cheap printer paper, white socks out of the laundry, and so on.

                            Other colors do weird and spectacular things under a blacklight, but those are NOT indications of recent manufacture.

                            Imperial reds will often go blazing red, or pink.

                            Pink color will go radioactive lifeguard orange-- as will purple, often.

                            Greens take on sci-fi brightness. I've even got one Baden ribbon bar where the Zähringen Lion green and the 1906 Medal yellow come out the same radiator fluid Alien Bug Blood color!

                            These are natural and correct effects of dyes on silk ribbons and uniform cloth of the Imperial period.

                            Comment

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