EK1 1813 opinions

[andya]

Hi
this is currently up for auction & I would appreciate your opinions. Having made a search of previous threads, I am unable to make my mind up about this cross and seek your help.The desription from the seller is as follows
A superb and extremely rare;
Imperial German 1813 Iron Cross 1st Class in its original presentation case.


This Cross is a jeweller's replacement, the style of case and screw fitting suggest it was made around 1840 to 1860.

The Cross has a narrow Silver frame, Silver backplate and magnetic Iron centre.

The Iron centre has some light rusting and there is some tarnishing to the frame and backplate.

The Cross measures 43mm across and weighs 14.6g (without fittings)

The fittings consist of a 30mm Iron disk and a Brass screw stud.

The Case is covered with Red Leatherette and lined with Cream Silk and Buff Velvet.

It has a Brass hinge and catch.

The Iron Cross fits the case perfectly.

The case has some signs of dampness and is faded. This is an extremely rare item, only 638 were originally awarded, in great condition for its age.

There are a few pictures as follows.
Thanks
Andy

[andya]

2

2

[andya]

3

3

[andya]

4

4

[andya]

5

5

[andya]

6

6

[andya]

7

7

[Blitz]

The case is impressive and certainly looks as old as it's said to be. The cross itself looks ok too. Allthough.. ..I've never seen an screwback 1813 ek1, but since this is said to have been made after the napoleonic wars, that isn't a real problem for me. But, I don't think that there is a soul out there that can tell you that it was made when it was said to have been made.

If I had spare money, I'd prolly go for it. That's just IMO. I only have a 2nd cl. and I've never held a 1st cl. in me hand so that's the best I can do.

[gregM]

Allthough.. ..I've never seen an screwback 1813 ek1. I don't think that there is a soul out there that can tell you that it was made when it was said to have been made.

Antti makes some very good points. Plus I would like to add that it does not have a stepped core. That does not mean it is bad but if I were to try to get a
1813 EK1 or 2, I would want as many positive indicators as possible. Another thing I noticed is the paint on the core. I know that a lot of 1813s were painted with lacquer which tended to bubble and chip off after time. Just one more thing that I would look for in a 1813.

All that being said, I can not tell for sure if this one is good or not.

greg

[Doug See]

IMO, it is what the seller says it is. An 1840-60 piece. It's as "good" as any other 1813 you'll find without conclusive proof of provenance, stepped or unstepped core, pinback, screwback, loopback, etc. It is what it is, what it is. A nice old 1813 jeweler's piece.

[jeep256]

Ek

Hello,

I think, both are not out of the time they should due to the description. The case style is coming up with the 1870 EK (and not 1840/60) and the screwback for an EK is known since WWI and not earlier. I've never seen a 1870 EK with a screwback, not to talk about a 1813 one.

Both pieces seem to me as a centenar pieces to the 100 years revival in 1913.

Kind regards from Germany

Walter

[Doug See]

Hello,

I think, both are not out of the time they should due to the description. The case style is coming up with the 1870 EK (and not 1840/60) and the screwback for an EK is known since WWI and not earlier. I've never seen a 1870 EK with a screwback, not to talk about a 1813 one.

Both pieces seem to me as a centenar pieces to the 100 years revival in 1913.

Kind regards from Germany

Walter

I respectfully disagree with some of your analysis. This screwback design is unlike the typical WWI designs. The case style DOES seem to be similar to 1870 style, which is still consistent with a mid 1800's style. The iron core and paint show age and bubbling not yet normally seen on 1914 crosses, or even 1870 crosses.
On the other hand, the frame DOES appear to be a later style.
Well, at least it's not laser cut with a machine turned screw back plate, marked 900, with new red surface rust and advertised as "found on the battlefield".

[Tiger 1]

For sure it is not an award piece from the 1813-1815 era. It should be considered a representative piece.

There are some good points discussed here and I would like to add some observations of my own.

I think that this cross is a bit later than the 1840-1860 suggested by the seller.

The lack of a stepped core is not a steadfast indicator of originality as far as 1st class 1813 EKs go. There are known examples of both stepped and nonstepped cores from the 1813-1815 era. But having said that the nonstepped cores seem to be the norm for 1st class 1813 EKs. All period 2nd class 1813 EKs should show the stepped core.

I have a problem squaring the stated size of 43mm with many known examples that range in size from 32 thru 41 mm. This larger 43mm is the standard or common frame size for later Imperial EKs from the Jubilee era(1895-96) and later. It is not very hard to manufacture or convert a 1914 EKI to resmble an 1813. I am not suggesting that this is the case here. I am of the opinion that this cross is from the later time when the 43mm size was the standard for EK construction. The beading and shape of this frame strongly points in that direction. The uneven thickness on the bottom flange edge shown in one of the pictures suggests a reassembled frame. I'm nit picking here but it is a fact to be pondered.

The stove enamelled or lacquered finish looks to be proper and as such cannot be an accurate indicator of true age. I lean toward a lacquering as the finish seems to be thin. It is hard to be absolutely sure without having the piece in hand.

I agree that the case is 1870s or later manufacture.

I have to agree that the screwback is not found on period 1870s and in that respect I can't recall seeing any during my long pursuit of these rare EKs. The same goes for the rarer 1813 EKIs. Never say never and never say always is an astute axiom to follow when collecting but to date I haven't found any screwbacks that would be early.

Speaking of that type of screwback, it is a fairly common type used during both the 1914 era and on rarer occasion early during the 1939 era. I have both 1914 and 1939 EKI examples with not minutely identical but very similar screwbacks in my collection. In particular I'm talking about the tapped female post with a single hole disc and a capped threaded male screw. This type of screwback arrangement strongly suggests a much later cross. All screwback fittings, possibly with the exception of the disc, are lathe or machine turned. With the coming of the industrial age belt driven metal lathes were among the first machine tools.

Overall it is not a bad looking piece. Depending on the final hammer price it can be a good representative example of a later made 1813. But IMO it should not be confused with an original 1813-1815 period example. As a point of interest the only genuine 1813 EKI with provenance that I have seen was conservatively valued at around $4500. That was 10-12 years ago now. What it's value is today I don't really know.

Just some thoughts,

Tony

[kaiserzeit]

Hello,

I am still early in my learning curve on these older EK's.

One of the guidelines I had set for myself was that the older pieces (period 1870 EK's and before) have sand-cast iron cores.

The significance of this is that the sand-cast cores have a slightly 'grainy' surface rather than the smooth surface you would get from machine-stamped plate.

What do the more experienced members think? Is this a valid diagnostic tool, or too simplistic? Of course, taken in sum with the other pieces of evidence.

Cheers,

Laurie

[Tiger 1]

Hello Laurie,

Welcome to the forum. It's a great place to be.

You made a very valid point on the sandcast cores. Sandcast cores can be found on many 1914 EKs also. Die striking of cores seems to have come into use with the 1914 EKs. Whether they were struck hollow out of sheet steel or solid struck out of maleable(soft) iron can only be determined with EKs that have split apart. For example 1914 Godet EKIIs marked with the 'G' with their very crisp core detail suggest a die struck core.

With so few examples of genuine 1813 EKIs it is hard to draw conclusions whether both sandcast and plain sheet steel were originally used in core construction. I say this because the core of an 1813 EKI has no raised design elements such as the crown, oaks, date, etc.

Again, welcome aboard!

Tony