2 very interesting ribbon bars ...

[Eric Gaumann]

Can you provide a link?

http://www.bretzendorfer.com/us/us_us.html
But the catalog is *brutal* to search through. The same as Siegmund Stephan's. Whoever designed that needs to be spanked, hard.

[stogieman]

I have dared death....

... and visited the pathetic, sickly, teetering on the brink of coughing Mr. Research..... Henceforth, his new moniker shall no longer be "He Who Shall Not Be Named", but he shall be known as "Germ Boy"............

PS: Christian, very nice bars and the first time I have seen this small bar.

PPS: Very, very good to see Germ Boy posting again! Welcome back!

[Bob Hunter*]

Rick, why not consider naming him DOC for the legendary Doc Holliday who had a cough of his own...? Although I must admit there is a certain infectious quality to the name 'Germ Boy'.

[fknorr]

http://www.bretzendorfer.com/us/us_us.html
But the catalog is *brutal* to search through. The same as Siegmund Stephan's. Whoever designed that needs to be spanked, hard.

BRUTAL IS RIGHT!
WOW!

[Rick Research]

sogieman = EVIL Twin. Rick Research = GOOD Twin.

I went through the Luftwaffe generals and did not come up with a lucky photographic match. Overwhelmingly, these sorts of combinations were artillery officers who went into Flak, probably a Hauptmann aD 1920 and a WW2 Oberst. Statistically that's the norm.

POSSIBLY better chance with the NN4. As Dave noted, those did NOT grow on trees, and SOLO awards to junior Hauptleute with post-1897 seniority as of 1914 might make it possible to do a Process Of Elimination on this one, Christian.

I will go through the 1914 page by page, make a list of "all" possible suspects, and then see how many of THOSE can be ELIMINATED by known other awards, being killed 1914-15, and so on. Such an Everyone Else Is Eliminated process MIGHT work... it will just take me a long time. (Lucky for you "Lost" is on REPEAT again tonight, so no distractions!)

Per Bob's other thread

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=91156

about what constitutes "researchable" groups-- this sort of mind-numbing, labor intensive SLOG through 1,000+ pages (often having to be checked against multiple years to make sure) is why this type of research is NOT

Commercially Viable

because friends couldn't pay for billable hours, and nobody in their right mind would go through this for not friends!!!

Will report back with "NN4" results!

[Rick Research]

This has been a worthwhile research example case, and sadly-- all too typical for the investment of time and effort:

5 1/2 hours to go through the 1914 Prussian/Württemberg Army Rank List (having previously gone through 1918 & 1926 Navy, and 1924 Army for say a TOTAL of about 7 hours-- a "working day" of time).

I went through looking for ONE single decoration, the uncommon "NN4." I did NOT even consider the 1914 Austro-Hungarian Red Cross award-- a freaky thing often bestowed for merit far afield of "medical." The result is a single

POSSIBLE

recipient--


a mysterious Stabsarzt (10.9.08 D) Dr. Wolff, who from 1912-14 served as an instructor at the Kaiser Wilhelm Academy for Military Medical Training, before transferring to the Noncommissioned Officers School at Potsdam shortly before the war. I have no Rank Lists showing awards between the issues of 1907 and 1912, so some help there (for his assignments 1908-11 as well) would help.

Dr. Wolff (one of MANY Doctor Wolffs, alas) had an Imperial Chinese Order of the Double Dragon-Class III.3 (not worn on medal bars) by 1912, and

the "NN4" all added between 1907-12. "Exotic" awards like the "CD" were most often earned IN GERMANY, not overseas.

I say "mysterious" because he seems to have Magically Appeared as a medical Captain-- in 1907 he was NOT repeat NOT listed as a regular Medical Officer, apparently being one of half a dozen RESERVE Oberarzt (Dr.) Wolffs with no awards at all to distinguish between them, "thanks" to Prussia's failure to list first names. THIS Dr. Wolff retired after WW1 as an Oberstabsarzt aD, but since there is no listing for rank dates for Prussian medical officers after 1914, SEVERAL possible Dr. Wolffs with awards can NOT be determined to be him-- or NOT.

The problem is that NONE of the wartime awards on this ribbon bar have published rolls. There IS one for the Württemberg Friedrich Order's WW1 awards at the state archive, but it has not been printed. Even IF a Stabsarzt/Oberstabsarzt Dr. Wolff (with or without first name) appeared as a "WF3aX" winner...

there would still be NO way to determine if he was the ONLY possible recipient.

All it takes would be ONE OTHER recipient of a NN4 after the printer's cutoff date for the May 1914 Rank List... and that would DOUBLE the suspects list.

About the only thing that seems clear is that this is a pre-1920 ribbon bar (no XXV Years Service Cross for someone a PRE-war Captain, at a time when that required 14-16 years service-- EXCEPT for some oft promoted but NON long service... medical officers) for someone likely NOT in either regiment (Infantry 15 and Hussar 15) with a Dutch "Chief." The array of German awards do not match with those.

Dr. Wolff is a remote hope, a potential original recipient


but nothing more.





"One day" for the above results, versus about 12 seconds to match up THIS one--->

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=91463

[Christian L]

thanks so much rick - don't know how to thank you for the info you've given me!!!!!!!

here are close ups of the devices:
eagles

[Christian L]

and the bravery clasp:

[Rick Research]

That is an EXTREMELY interesting HT Spange--

Handmade? Real silver? It appears to be hand engraved. Never seen one like that before! Is the ribbon bar a sew on? It looks like that brown fiber material peeking through, often used on the sew-on bars.

Absence of a long service ribbon makes me think pre-1919...

but a sew-on in 15mm width, and this unauthorized (but oh so and USEFUL, for an award with many reverses on the same ribbon) Spange makes me think 1920s.

If 1920s, maybe a slightly better chance of it being the Mysterious Dr. Wolff... since he seems to have appeared magically as a Captain without earlier regular army service.

That IS a HT ribbon faded out on the Luftwaffe bar before the HH, right?

[Christian L]

hy rick,
yes, it is a faded out hessen ribbon.
here now pics of the reverse (Dr. Wolff bar) - if the device is real silver i don't know (could be - but the prongs to it are definately not!)

[Christian L]

and the reverse of the flyers bar:

a thought to the Dr. - i think as noncombat soldier for him, it was important to mark his hessen medal as a real bravery award (perhaps he earned it in some way under fire and not in a hospital - don't want to judge if we could differ the hardness of both jobs in war).
but i would say, that for him it was more special than the other awards.

... the bar now!

[Gerd Becker]

Hi everybody,

i have a few questions about the Hessian Allgemeine Ehrenzeichen.

There were this versions:

1.Für Tapferkeit
2.Für Kriegsverdienste
3.Für Verdienste
4.Für treue Dienste
5.Für langjährige treue Dienste
6.Für fünfzigjährige treue Dienste
7.Für Rettung von Menschenleben
8.Für wiederholte Rettung von Menschenleben
9.Für treue Arbeit

While its clear to me, what Nr 1 and 6-8 were awarded for, i have a few questions to the others:

2. awarded for merits connected with the war?
3. awarded for civil merits?
4.+ 5.+ 9. How many years service required this medal?

Has anyone the versions 5-8 in his collection or does anyone has seen these versions?

Thanks in advance

best,
Gerd