Pilots commemorative badge Meybauer

[Hagrid]

Hmmm...
OK – a wheephole! Now we do not have a solid badge any longer and Stefan might do us a favour by supplying us with additional data (size, weight).
By the way: Pandis has a hollow silver one of these in his book as well, but admittedly with the wrong hardware setup (labeled as "fake"...)
Advocatus diaboli : “Doesn´t the cross look like the silvering is worn off at the edges?” Could be the light, could be the camera...

(...)
However, how do we know that Meybauer did not make more than one die for this badge ?
How do we know that the badge Hagrid is showing on the viewers right is not the first version made during WW1 to when ? and the "925" version that started this thread on the viewers left, a second version of the badge by "Meybauer" from may-be the 1930's after the first die wore out or broke ?
How do we know that they did not have separate dies for the hollow deluxe version verses the solid version ? (...)

Baldes has a solid zinc-example in his book – it displays the same features all the others have – and it´s supposedly made in the 40ies. That could mean that the spare die we might - according to Chris -have unvealed here came in pretty late during the race…

(...)A friend emailed me, he magnified such a badge greatly. He simply expected to find evidence of lost wax casting from the known/ accepted type. Instead he found a completely different die, real 925 silver and clear signs of hand finishing with a jewellers saw. This type of saw work is seen on early Juncker and Deumer badges for example. Quality workmanship to say the least. (...)

Given that your friend examined exactly a badge like the one discussed here, his finds are not that unexspected. There are more ways of faking than just "cast of an original" (how should there be different details then, anyway?) and often a lot of workmanship is involved, provided by jewelers, silversmiths etc. Remember Klietmann or the guy that used the Graf-Klenau-platform (Hermann Historica now) to distribute top quality fakes made by belgian or hungarian (?) craftsmen? And we are not even talking about galvanoplastic, laser-etching or even 3D-printing here...
(In regular intervals there are offers in the german ebay that look like the real stuff (crisp minted details, silver and all) - but (fortunately) have wrong MM and backsides. If the fakers get this right one day, it will become very very difficult!)

(...) Thus who decided they were bad and why ? Was this a collector myth started in the 1960's that has perpetuated down the years from a time when we did not realise that the some makers used more than one die ?

One of these “truths” out of the collectors comfort zone (in the upper part of the Gauss bell, opinionwise)- is the consistency of design over the years: We´re speaking of the same dies used all the way through the years with the exceptions (as far as I know…) of Poellath and Deumer.
Spoken strictly for myself : I feel fine with the "mainstream" consent in the collectors world and mostly rely on the condensed experience gathered by some specialists after intense research and study. Their expertise (and confidence) to publish their results in a book, paper or otherwise is sufficient for me. And if they, as all humans do, err in some of their conclusions, I´d rather live with that than find out the hard way that the rare variant I bought is a common fake after all.
All these "Who ever claimed, that..."-questions may have their value in propelling knowledge further on once in a while, but I think one does not have to invent the wheel all over again and again.
"What if Juncker did stamp a crown on their badges and all of a sudden all these specimens turn out to be real?"
(By the way: That reminds my of this person : =>
http://www.saxoniamilitaria.com/page...e16/index.html )

Sorry for this lengthy post - I did not intend to start a kind of "fundamental discussion" here...

Back to the badge: I still wouldn´t buy it - if it´s an unknown (so far...) variant: Let it be!
In my opinion it mimicks Meybauer but it isn´t.
Regards
Hagrid

Edit: 2nd type according to Baldes? Or to Chris ?

[90th Light]

Edit: 2nd type according to Baldes? Or to Chris ?

Thank you for the detail reply Hagrid,

I am not so sure ever that anything on WAF will ever be accepted as "according to" me. Carsten Blades of course is a different story.

However, this thread has sparked in me the greatest question one can ask when making a study of something...... Why ? ........ and to keep asking why until ones thirst for knowledge is quenched. If such thirst can ever be satisfied in a person with a real interest or desire to learn.

The first thing to establish with this version, is there a difference in the weights. Is the badge that started this thread, a real deluxe, quality, hollow version ?
If so then it will be lighter than the solid type. That will tell us a lot.

If it is hollow then the next thing is to study the quality of workmanship around the edge. Does this match known original, beyond doubt Meybauer hollow badges ?

I take on board what you have stated about "Klietmann, Graf-Klenau-platform (Hermann Historica now) and Belgian or Hungarian craftsmen". However, this badge is known in collections from the 1960's and has always been declared as being made in England. This version of a "Meybauer" badge have never sold for big money. They have always been too cheap with a tarnished reputation to justify the cost of completely a new die and high quality hand finishing.

The other thing to consider, if a fake made in the 1960's. And the faker was capable of such a high quality, plus correct Meybauer manufacturing footprints for the time of the 1960's. Why did we not see more in this Meybauer style marked "925" i.e. pilot, air-gunner etc ?

Why just the Commemorative Pilot in real marked "925" silver with correct Meybauer hinge, pin and hook ? This is exactly the correct style/ grade of metal for the Commemorative Pilot badge of the 1930's & 40's. Also Meybauer made many of the Commemorative Pilot badges out there today accepted as original so it was definitely a product in their company's line.

I can not defend the badge as original because I have no more facts than are presented here. But I am questioning the possibility of "Collector Folklore" passed down from one generation to the next. Based on what ? Is the perpetual folklore legend of reproduction correct or not ?

The other thing spurring my questions, in recent years there has been an expansion in the knowledge of some German manufacturers using more than one die for the badges they made. This was not widespread knowledge or even accepted by some when this badge was declared bad in the 1960's.

I repeat I can not defending the badge as original. However, I am intrigued by it and the possibility that a hollow version may exist. I am questioning who declared it bad and why. At this stage, I am not convinced it is wrong but open to the possibility. It is a different die from what is readily accepted but definitely with in acceptable boundaries of being another type from Meybauer,

Chris

[90th Light]

Two follow up points;

1/ Hagrid wrote: “Doesn´t the cross look like the silvering is worn off at the edges?” Could be the light, could be the camera...

Looks to be silver that is tarnishing at the edge because the protective factory lacquer has worn off at that point ???


2/ Hagrid wrote: Baldes has a solid zinc-example in his book – it displays the same features all the others have – and it´s supposedly made in the 40ies.

Two thoughts, some manufactures sometimes used more than one die simultaneously for a range of reasons. However, is that zinc badge shown on page 295 of Carsten's book actually made by Meybauer ? Is that a 1940's Meybauer pin, hinge and hook ? or could it be a badge made by a another Berlin maker who acquired from or shared dies with Meybauer ? We now know that this type of co-operation happened between badges makers in common localities such as Ludenshield for example. The pin, hinge and hook shown on page 295 does not match any Meybauer badge that I have seen or handled from WW2,

Chris

p.s. good line up of the various Meybauer hinges, pins and hooks used during WW2 in this thread; http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=749165

[Hagrid]

I just meant the frontside features.
Same look like all the others, no matter what neighbour welded his hardware to the back. Proves that the die had still been in use in the forties. If they had a second (different) die, they were not using it with this zinc-piece.
Regards
Hagrid

[90th Light]

I just meant the frontside features.
Same look like all the others, no matter what neighbour welded his hardware to the back. Proves that the die had still been in use in the forties. If they had a second (different) die, they were not using it with this zinc-piece.
Regards
Hagrid

I understand what you are saying Hagrid,

all it means is that the maker of the badge on page 295 of Carsten's book had the first type of dies made by Meybauer or used the Meybauer design.

There could be more than one reason;

1/ Meybauer made and sold or shared the first type dies

2/ Meybauer sold the old dies.

3/ This maker simply copied Meybauer's badge at some point in time.

We will not know for sure and it is pointless speculating when we do not know if the second type under discusion here is right or wrong.

However, I am surprised no one has ever commented about the pin and hinge on page 295 not being examples used by Meybauer. This just reinforces my point that the idea of dies being shared between makers or more than one die from the same maker is not fully understood or ignored when some write books or declared badges good or bad, especially back in the 1960's,

Chris

[Stephen Previtera]

Sorry as I did not read all the threads so not sure what the conclusion is but in my opinion this is not a good badge. I am just completing Volume II of Imperial Sky, the Naval badges and that splendid maker Meybauer is displayed throughout. One of my pet research projects was to understand the maker mark. I have seen it now a hundred times, and it does not look like the mark on this badge. I even had a Naval badge I dismissed, but then came back to it when it had the correct Meybauer mark. But you know what, I then dismissed it again as I slowly came to realize the badge was a casting from an original. So that one was really dangerous, and so is this example. I have been offered a badge exactly like this about three-four years ago from Germany. It is everything my pal Fergus mentioned with the correct hinge, etc. BUT the mark is not the correct mark. Hagrid picked it apart for other reasons, but one look at the first photo told me what I needed to know. And I try to keep an open mind as we are all students!

[gregM]

...... BUT the mark is not the correct mark...........but one look at the first photo told me what I needed to know

That's an interesting comment and good information. Fake Meybauer marks
have been hinted about in this forum for years.

[90th Light]

It is a very good point about the Meybauer marks used, both the "two-headed eagle" and the "925". I do not disagree with this observation. However, the two-headed eagle stamps one sees on badges, EK1's etc from this maker over the period of 1913 to 1945, can vary quite a bit. I stress, I am in no way disagreeing. Instead, I would encourage a detailed study of these marks and such comparisons. Perhaps a thread dedicated to this study of Meybauer markings in its own right.

Comparison with the marks on the link below is enlightening and this is but one badge;

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=895702

What still has me intrigued is the fact that the badge that started this thread, is a completely different die and its a hollow construction to a very high standard of workmanship in the Meybauer style. If I was going to fake these, then why not simply lost-wax copy the badge in the link. This would have been a lot easier, cheaper and perhaps more convincing ???

Plus look at the difference in "weep holes" on the reverse side. I have never seen a Meybauer with 5 weep-holes as seen in the link badge and never seen weep-holes in some of those positions, on both badges. Another aspect of Meybauer badges that also seems to vary. It is interesting what we do not know about this maker.

Intriguing indeed if nothing else,

Chris

[Brian L.]

That's an interesting comment and good information. Fake Meybauer marks
have been hinted about in this forum for years.

There was a detailed thread on the fake and real Meybauer marks done on another collector forum. I'm trying to remember which one.

If I was going to fake these, then why not simply lost-wax copy the badge in the link. This would have been a lot easier, cheaper and perhaps more convincing ??? Chris

Actually, it's comparatively easy to make laser cut dies, these days. While I don't know about this particular badge, I do know in my main area of collecting (Freikorps) that new dies have been cut (usually incorrectly) for a number of awards and badges and the resulting copies are all over not just eBay, but also well-known, respected dealer sites.

[90th Light]

Actually, it's comparatively easy to make laser cut dies, these days. While I don't know about this particular badge, I do know in my main area of collecting (Freikorps) that new dies have been cut (usually incorrectly) for a number of awards and badges and the resulting copies are all over not just eBay, but also well-known, respected dealer sites.

Well that the challenge and question mark surrounding this type,

this badge is known in collection from the 1960's even the 1950's. There were no lase-cut dies in those days. It had to be done the old fashion way by a skilled craftsman who knew how to make the dies. Make badges from such dies. Then finish them off to a excellent standard with jeweler's saw or invisible joining on the hollow types . Who ever made them, had access to Meybauer hinges, pin and hooks or knew Meybauer style/ characteristics.

Also there were no Hungarian craftsmen to make them back then either. It was the height of the Cold War in the 1960's and not much, if anything ever got beyond the Iron Curtain. However, I suppose Belgium craftsmen as mention by Hagrid must be considered. Such craftsmen would be just as skilled at lost-wax which would have been a lot cheaper and have captured the exact details of the accepted type especially with that hinge, pin and hook on them.

During the 1990's it was stated that they were made in England in the 1960's However, I now have an email from a collector who has one, his came out of an old collection and was cataloged into that old collection in the 1950's.

As I have already stated, intriguing is a good description for these. Even a bit of a mystery,

Chris

[Hagrid]

For all of you who are daring enoughfor a gamble:
The badge is available on german ebay (...again), unfortunately protected with a limit:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Fliegerabzeic...4AAOSw4DJYhNLr
Happy bidding!
Hagrid