Pilots commemorative badge Meybauer

[aktinium]

would like to heat your option about this badge.

Produced in the 30s?

[aktinium]

pics

[90th Light]

I presume this is a solid example ?

If so, many do not like this version. They claim they were made in England in the 1960's. The reason for this, seems to be because they have a "925" silver mark which is the same grade of silver as "Sterling". They go on to say, if they were German made, they would be marked "935".

I find this argument a bit simple. The Germans did mark some items "925". I also have seen no other evidence what so ever of English silver manufacture in this version. And to add even more to the mix, we now know that Meybauer did die-cast-stamp many of the solid badges they made such as the Naval Pilot badges.

The deluxe-hollow, silver marked versions of this badge by this maker are highly rated and desired by collectors. These are made from two pieces of metal finely sweated together with gas escape holes. Even hollow examples without silver marks are sought after.

If my memory serves me correctly, "925" & "935" were the highest grade of silver used by Meybauer to make their top of the line badges. These grades of silver make sense for the Commemorative Pilot Badge,

Chris

[90th Light]

Here are the 4 grades that Meybauer offered the Commemorative Pilot Badge for sale in their post-WW1 catalogue;

1/ Neusilber Versilbert = RM 2.25
2/ Messing- vergoldet = RM 3.25
3/ 900,000 Silber = RM 12.00
4/ 900,000 Silber verg= RM 13.00

Note the silver grade is described as "900,000" which I presume means some grading of 900 grade silver because I have never seen a German silver badge marked "900",

Chris

[Hagrid]

A lot of flight badges pouring in here recently
This one IMO pretents to be a Meybauer, but has some details that differ from originals and therefore I don't like:
Parallel lines of the main road are bulging, roof of the tower is pointed of sorts, the front of the right building, the strukture of the trees below the buildings, the left arc of the crown, the beak of the eagle....to name a few.
On the reverse the picture shows no wheepholes (I don't know if there have been massive ones at all...), the weight of the badge could answer the question whether it's hollow or not.
I personally think that, having a Meybauer-like makers mark, it's not even a copy but a dangerous fake to the disadvantage of the unaware collector.
You see this type in english auctions a lot with too moderate pricing -
I would not buy it.
Regards
Hagrid

[aktinium]

Hi Hagrid and Chris,

thanks for your fast comments.

Very helpfully for me - so I save alot of money.

regards

Stefan

[Ferg 1]

You will find plenty of meybauer badges with the 925 mark,it is not a sign of a copy. They used 925 on their aviation badges as well as their medals etc.. could be a sign of post war manufacture but certainly not a label for fake. This badge ,for me has a chance, the hardware is spot on for meybauer, draw marks down the pin shaft,rounded over shoulders on the hinge block , all traits of this maker and not what you see on copies. There are copies of this badge but they are always furnished with a round pin and wrong block, catch etc.. and dull details. Meybauer had a habit of using some sort of micro etch to give that frosted look ( not always) and as a result sometimes gave the appearance of dull details. Ferg.

[Hagrid]

(...) This badge ,for me has a chance, the hardware is spot on for meybauer (...) all traits of this maker and not what you see on copies.

Hi Ferg!
You are certainly right - and this is what IMO makes this example so dangerous: The details are all there, but some are slightly different where there should be no difference (given the assumption, that Meybauer used only one die to produce them and conceded, that not all pieces can be exactly alike due to differences in material, applied pressure and wear of the tools used). I´ll try to show it on a picture: Compare the discussed piece to (hopefully!) originals from my archive:
- on the crown arc some pearls are missing, they have different sizes
- the little crosses are tilted and look like an "x"
- the flat top of the tower is pointed
- the lines of the road are not parallel and bulging
- there seem to be more windows atop the left side of the lower building
- on the right side the stories are divided by two lines all the way through
- the bow-flow and the twig-strands are not as "natural", and so is the tree area as well
The badge looks to me like someone tried to draw an exact picture of a Meybauer original and only failed at some points - the general impression is somehow coarser, where the original has very fine structures and so the entire thing "does not look right".
Like a horse painted black and white to look like a zebra - on the first look everything is there...but it`s not right.
( I´m getting close to my limits, languagewise...I don´t know how to precisely describe my impression...)
Regards
Hagrid

[90th Light]

Actually, I think the quality of the "925" Meybauer is very high, even impressive. Certainly, way beyond any other fake badge from England in the 1960's that I have seen.

Hagrid is doing an amazing job in comparing this badge with a known original which is very helpful.

However, how do we know that Meybauer did not make more than one die for this badge ?

How do we know that the badge Hagrid is showing on the viewers right is not the first version made during WW1 to when ? and the "925" version that started this thread on the viewers left, a second version of the badge by "Meybauer" from may-be the 1930's after the first die wore out or broke ?

How do we know that they did not have separate dies for the hollow deluxe version verses the solid version ?

Sorry, more questions than answers but very few fakers in the 1960's got the hardware (pin, hinge & hook) right, if any. This badge has the correct hardware as Ferg has rightly noted. That today is a very good possible sign of original.

At this stage, I am not convinced they are bad,

Chris

[Don D.]

The original that Hagrid shows matches the one shown in their catalog from the 1920s.

[aktinium]

Are there some comments in the book from Carsten Baldes about this problem?

[Hagrid]

Ok - Stefan....
....you've got me back to the books!
Stephen Previtera does not mention this style.
Robert Pandis lists it as "fake" (page 185, latest edition)
Carsten Baldes calls it politely "collectors edition" (page 661)
In both cases the hardware setup ist correct including a Meybauerlike crest and a 925 or 935 silver mark, the weight is 44.6 and 44.8 grams (!).
Now that I saw the pictures it occurs to me that the hinge well in not the usual beanshaped Meybauer type but bigger and flattened at the lower edge. It seems to be deeper as usual as well and has sharper rims.
Would it be illegal (copyright issues) to post the pictures from the book as a quote?
I don't know - this is why I don't do it

Another examination worth the effort would be to determine what exactly these badges are made of...
Regards
Hagrid

[90th Light]

Are there some comments in the book from Carsten Baldes about this problem?

Carsten baldes lists the version that started this thread in the "Collector Reproductions" section (page 661 exactly) of his book.

However, I have pondered this overnight. Who actually decided these were bad and why ?

A friend emailed me, he magnified such a badge greatly. He simply expected to find evidence of lost wax casting from the known/ accepted type. Instead he found a completely different die, real 925 silver and clear signs of hand finishing with a jewellers saw. This type of saw work is seen on early Juncker and Deumer badges for example. Quality workmanship to say the least.

Thus who decided they were bad and why ? Was this a collector myth started in the 1960's that has perpetuated down the years from a time when we did not realise that the some makers used more than one die ?

Chris

p.s. the hinges used on original Meybauer badges varied a bit over the period of 1913 to 1945 and before. Although they have some common traits, there was more than one type/ size of hinge used.

[aktinium]

2 more pics I have got

[90th Light]

Wow aktinium,

that looks to be a hollow example of the 2nd type. What is the weight ?

I have never seen a hollow version of this "2nd type" Commemorative Pilot Badge by Meybauer. All examples I have seen were solid and as I have already stated, many just simply assumed they were a lost wax casting.

However, your one looks to be made of 2 pieces of metal neatly sweated together in Meybauer quality and style.

This is discovery indeed and the mystery/ plot now thickens

So who exactly declared this version bad and made in England in the 1960's ???

Chris