Schickle PLM Being Worn?

[Steve Knott]

All,

Attached please find two photos of PLM recipient Otto Lancelle. Photo 1 shows Lancelle as a Oberstleutnant in 1938; the PLM is a Wagner/Friedlander type and is very likely the award he received in WWI. Another photo (not attached) of Lancelle as a RAD officer in 1935 shows the same Wagner/Friedlander PLM. Photo 2 shows Lancelle as a Generalmajor in 1941; note the PLM is a Godet/Schickle type.

If one goes on the assumption that Lancelle did not have a second WWI produced PLM by Godet in storage for 23 years, then the award in Photo 2 is likely a Schickle duplicate to prevent the necessity of wearing his prized WWI Wagner/Friedlander original award in the field. Regrettably, the resolution of Photo 2 is not high enough to detect the larger center area or short-middle "M" typical of a Schickle PLM.

<O</OWould it not be logical to conclude that a PLM recipient who appears in photos consistently wearing a Wagner/Friedlander type in 1918-1939 and then switches to a Godet/Schickle type in 1940-1945 is wearing a duplicate purchased in WWII? As Schickle is the obvious source of Godet style replacements in 1939-1941, perhaps a study of WWII period photos will reveal more Schickle PLMs being worn during the war than previously thought? Thoughts?

Best regards,
Steve

[streptile]

Nice photos.

You're definitely correct that he's wearing a pie-wedge PLM in the second photo

But why not a Godet? The center looks very narrow, which is the hallmark of a true Godet (rather than a "Schickle"), and we can't know when Godet stopped making their zweitstücke, or even if they stopped making them before 1945.

[Erickn]

Hello Steve,

Interesting subject indeed. The center juncture appears narrow in the second image of Lancelle imo also. What about the PLM of Ferdinand Schorner? First an early image. Appears to be a wide juncture although, could be in the resolution.

Regards,
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[Erickn]

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[Erickn]

Schickle PLM ?

[Steve Knott]

Schickle PLM

Streptile,

I believe it more likely a Schickle than a Godet based on when it was purchased (1939-1941). As you know, J. Godet was sold in 1929 and they seem to have been a very modest producer of Third Reich awards at best; J. Godet does not appear on the official list of PKZ/LDO suppliers. There is also no evidence that Gebr. Godet, formed in 1930, made a PLM - likely because the dies remained with J. Godet and the limited demand for the award would not have justified the cost of making new dies. One knowledgeable dealer/collector does assert that the Schickle PLM was made using the J. Godet dies, which is likely given the expense required to make new dies and the similarities in construction. Had J. Godet made a PLM in 1939-1941, I believe they would have marked it with the company name like their other few TR products (e.g., Spanish Cross).

E,

Thanks for posting the photos of Schorner. The first photo appears to show a Wagner/Friedlander PLM and the second photo definitely shows a Schickle PLM in my humble opinion. This is another good example of my point; Schorner - and other senior WWII PLM recipients - would not want to wear their coveted WWI award in the field and I believe Schickle provided the vast majority of these duplicates purchased in 1939-1941. Though still a modest demand to be sure, which also explains why Schickle PLMs are rather uncommon.

Best regards,
Steve

[Les]

All,

Attached please find two photos of PLM recipient Otto Lancelle. Photo 1 shows Lancelle as a Oberstleutnant in 1938; the PLM is a Wagner/Friedlander type and is very likely the award he received in WWI. Another photo (not attached) of Lancelle as a RAD officer in 1935 shows the same Wagner/Friedlander PLM. Photo 2 shows Lancelle as a Generalmajor in 1941; note the PLM is a Godet/Schickle type.

If one goes on the assumption that Lancelle did not have a second WWI produced PLM by Godet in storage for 23 years, then the award in Photo 2 is likely a Schickle duplicate to prevent the necessity of wearing his prized WWI Wagner/Friedlander original award in the field. Regrettably, the resolution of Photo 2 is not high enough to detect the larger center area or short-middle "M" typical of a Schickle PLM.

,
Steve

I agree with Trevor, the junction of the arms on a Godet are small, unlike the Schickle attributed pieces.

A point that needs to be made here, is there is a difference between something made by Godet, and something resembles the Godet style or has Godet looking design features. Putting this into contemporary terms, the Meybauer and "Schickel" pieces are knock-offs of the Godet style/design, and not made on the very same dies. The distinction is important.

Godet made one version of the PLM prior to the end of the war, and sometime in the 1920's another very similar one that has modified tail feathers on the eagles. They were made on very similar but different dies .

In the 1930's, Meybauer and Shickle also made Godet style crosses. The Meybauer crosses is single-sided, and although it looks very similar to a Godet, is not identical to the wartime version, or the modified version produced by Godet in the 1920's. The reverse side of the Meybauer shows signs of having been cast, not die-struck.

The "Schickel" attributed pieces and the wide space between the arms could not have been made by modified and reusing an existing die. Reusing an old die and modifying it, is far easier said than done. New dies can be transfered onto a new die blank but the process of cutting the design, is never exactly identical to the first one because hand engraving is subject to individual differences between engravers.

I owned Tony Colson's "Schickel" that hass been shown and discussed years ago on this forum, and compared it in hand, to Meybauer, and Godet pieces made during the war and the 1920's. All of these have die differences that mean they could not have been made on the SAME dies.

[Steve Knott]

Schickle PLM

Hi Les,

Thanks very much for the information concerning the dies. Very illuminating for me as I was going by what an experienced collector/dealer told me regarding the Schickle PLM being made on a Godet die (he shared his opinion on this website as well). Based on your observations, it looks like the Schickle die is unique. Since the Meybauer one-sided PLM is indistinguishable from a Godet in photos of recipients wearing the award, I guess it is best to keep looking for the large center area to identify Schickle PLMs being worn during WWII.

Attached is a photo of General Ravenstein. His prewar photos show him wearing a Wagner/Friedlander type, so it appears the Godet style duplicate visible in this photo was purchased during WWII. Again, I wish I could find higher resolution copies of these photos.

Best regards,
Steve

[Zepenthusiast]

Hi Steve,

Just because an individual can be seen wearing an issue-Wagner/FR in earlier images and is wearing a Godet-type in WWII does not mean they purchased the latter during WWII... It could have been purchased at any point from the date of award through some years in the 1930s as well, including during WWI as a second piece. More than a few individuals are known to have obtained Godet crosses during the Great War (Udet for instance), and perhaps as much because they liked the look of the Godet as for any desire to not wear the issue cross.

The Schorner image showing what really does appear to be a wide-waist cross is a very interesting pick-up Erikn! However, likewise we can't conclude anything as to when any of these crosses were purchased. (Earlier pictures of wearing the Wagner type does not mean he didn't have a Godet then, for instance.)

Best,

Jim

[Erickn]

The Schorner image showing what really does appear to be a wide-waist cross is a very interesting pick-up Erikn! However, likewise we can't conclude anything as to when any of these crosses were purchased. (Earlier pictures of wearing the Wagner type does not mean he didn't have a Godet then, for instance.)

Best,
Jim

Very true Jim, Ferdinand Schorner was awarded his RK 20 April 1941 so we can date the wide juncture PLM prior to that date.
Kind Regards,
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