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Prussian Kronen Orden 1.kl "50" - where's this?

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    #16
    I've seen enough evidence to prove that Klietmann made the Dead Eye PLM after WWII, most of which I've shared with you. True, I haven't shared this information in public. But I feel comfortable making the statement without qualification.
    I think the problem with this--echoing Kay's request to "show us what ya got" here--is that it implies possession of more solid evidence than I'd say you have, talking Kleitmann's role, that is.

    You have a good working theory and timeline and some very interesting circumstantial evidence (which I do appreciate your sharing and will of course protect), but that is still remote from becoming a statement of fact to be passed on. It makes as much sense as me saying "I've seen enough evidence to prove the Dead Eye PlMs were made in WWI, most of which I've shared with you, but not all of which has been shared in public," which you most certainly wouldn't swallow--nor would I expect you or anyone else to do so!

    Put another way, were Dr. Kleitmann alive today (and regardless of whatever other mischief he is known to have indulged in), your allegation he did with certainty produce the Dead Eye PlM as a fake and sell them fraudulently would be capable of inciting a lawsuit for libel, if he took offense. Do you really feel the results of your investigation to date (leastways what you have shared with me) could establish the truth of your claim in a court of law? That is one way I would personally define certainty or a statement of fact. Enough circumstantial evidence might win such a case, but I don't think you got it yet, my friend, based on what you've shared here or with me personally. It would obviously be helpful if everyone could weigh the evidence.

    Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying you are or must be wrong at all about this. I'm just not at all convinced you've proven Kleitmann made post-war Dead Eyes (or for that matter any of the other unique/particular pieces of evidence to which you are connecting them. He is logically a--maybe the--prime suspect for any post-war Godet fakes up until the time of his death, but I don't think you could get an indictment yet based on what you have.

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      #17
      Incidentally, that same evidence also contains -- for the first time ever! -- a tantalizing hint that some Dead Eyes could predate 1945 but, alas, you dismissed what ought to have been cause for celebration for you because it does not fit in your fanciful theory that the Dead Eye is a WWI-era award piece.
      Actually, Trevor, considering your prior stance that any and all "Dead Eyes" are fakes, I'm very appreciative of the openness to any pre-'45 potential as some acknowledgment that my instincts are not entirely wrong. However, there has previously been evidence presented (Bob Hritz's PlM attributed to Goering, some crosses described by Les in other threads as having pre-'45 provenance, etc.) to make that case. Since the "tantalizing hint" is also a circumstantial connection, it's very welcome in fact, but no more particularly convincing to me than the provenance claims, since I already accept them. The "hint" evidence doesn't by necessity contradict my theory of their earlier origin, either, so I've no reason to reject it for "not fitting" into my primary theory. Sure, by your interpretation it would make more sense that they be a 30's/40's creation, but I don't have any problem seeing it in a broader light.

      Won't stray off topic here beyond that observation--it's indirectly pertinent to Kleitmann, but a topic better addressed elsewhere I think.

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        #18
        Fair enough Jim; thanks for sharing your thoughts.
        Best regards,
        Streptile

        Looking for ROUND BUTTON 1939 EK1 Spange cases (LDO or PKZ)

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          #19
          I get it

          there is NO ,,,,,,,,,,NO justified evidence fore any opinion or claim in the comments of this thread..

          right ?


          K
          Last edited by Montgomery Burns; 12-24-2015, 08:35 AM.

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            #20
            Crown order

            I have been tearing the house apart for a catalogue which had a collection of top end, verging on fantasy , orders from various German duchies and principalities which were all custom made for one collector. A huge number of them were similar to the one in the thread i.e. Ribbons of other orders intertwined in the arms of the cross. Lobeer and also swords above, swords through the orders, and swords below; in some cases, combinations of swords .
            Time frame is 80/90s.
            I must run now . Merry Christmas everyone . I'll return to finish my reply tomorrow.
            Stevenn

            Comment


              #21
              Hi Steven,

              That sounds interesting Please post when you find it.

              Merry Christmas to all.
              Best regards,
              Streptile

              Looking for ROUND BUTTON 1939 EK1 Spange cases (LDO or PKZ)

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by stevenn View Post
                I have been tearing the house apart for a catalogue which had a collection of top end, verging on fantasy , orders from various German duchies and principalities which were all custom made for one collector. A huge number of them were similar to the one in the thread i.e. Ribbons of other orders intertwined in the arms of the cross. Lobeer and also swords above, swords through the orders, and swords below; in some cases, combinations of swords .
                Time frame is 80/90s.
                I must run now . Merry Christmas everyone . I'll return to finish my reply tomorrow.
                Stevenn
                lets hope you're examples inspires the Illuminati around here to share some substantial info to

                regards kay

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                  #23
                  I'm still looking. I have just gotten rid of my practice so I have a huge pile of stuff to get past before I can get to the part of the basement where the old catalogues are stashed. I apologise for promising to get to the good stuff before I was physically and mentally able.
                  The one thing I do remember was that the person they were made for was an American, or so they claimed. I could have wept when I opened the catalogue and saw a lot of those baubles with opening bids of 100 DM and finding out that they were copies, or fantasy pieces, that we're made like originals and using the old dies. A large portion were marked , and probably made by, the Sisters Roth. By fantasy I mean a grand cross of the PFL Order of Oldenburg with Lobeer ,swords under the crown and an enamel ribbon of the English Garter Order intertwined in the arms of the cross. It was as if who ever ordered the copies went through Klenau's price list and picked all the orders which had the values marked by an asterisk , and then add something to the piece to put it over the top.
                  Less talking and more looking for the catalogue.
                  Hope everyone had a good Christmas, and all the best to all of you in the New Year.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Hi Stevenn,

                    Do you remember which auction house that was? Even if it was US or European one?




                    Originally posted by stevenn View Post
                    I have been tearing the house apart for a catalogue which had a collection of top end, verging on fantasy , orders from various German duchies and principalities which were all custom made for one collector. A huge number of them were similar to the one in the thread i.e. Ribbons of other orders intertwined in the arms of the cross. Lobeer and also swords above, swords through the orders, and swords below; in some cases, combinations of swords .
                    Time frame is 80/90s.
                    I must run now . Merry Christmas everyone . I'll return to finish my reply tomorrow.
                    Stevenn

                    Comment

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