ww1 pilot badge

[martin hall]

Hi Guys
not sure if i got this right, a friend at work came in with this and a few more bagdes so i said i would help to find out if they are ok not my area , think this is a pilot badge have no idea if its any good but sure looks ok to me any pointers on value thanks in advance for any help feel free to post or pm me best martin.

[martin hall]

A few more.

[martin hall]

Last ones thanks for any help best martin.

[Don D.]

It would be an observer badge, not a pilot badge.

[Ludwig]

Looks believable to me, but post 1918.

[90th Light]

Looks to be an original. The possible maker of this type is possibly "Juncker"

They are the economy model as opposed to the deluxe type made of 800 or 925 silver. This type was designed to be worn on the combat tunic or by EM/ NCO's who were not buying their own badge. However, most observers were officers.

Looking at the type of red enamel used, this is the type that was issued from 1914 onwards usually made from a non-magnetic nickel-silver. From 1916 they were made from a magnetic steel/ tin. In the 1920's they used up that type of pre-1918 red enamel centers and the badges tended to be made from a non-magnetic silvered brass.

Some time in the late 1920,s or early 1930,s the type of red enamel used for the centers was changed to a more translucent type of red enamel.

It is hard to judge from the images if this badge is made from brass or nickel-silver but it would appear to have every chance of being a WW1 example,

Chris

[juoneen]

you best score this one...

It is a good one...appears cleaned sometime long time back...these were the original issue type, and tougher to find...but did not have a thick finish and so when over cleaned they removed much of the original finish...(although you can still see some oxidation in some low spots )these are delicate and have to handled with kid gloves and should NEVER be cleaned. I would think around 650.usd should do it...unless you can negotiate it down some due to condition...good luck...

[rfleming32]

Hello Martin, I took a look in Carsten Baldes book " Aircrew Badges and Honor Prizes of the Flying Troops from 1913 to 1920" and did not find a match. Most observer badges have holes in the back where the enameled portion is attached which yours does not. Don't think it would be a Juncker because the catch does not match their style. Meybauer was the only other that I saw that had a pin system that would maybe match but don't know if they used the shepperd staff catch. Can you advise if and what parts of the badge are magnetic and which are silver plated? Tending to agree with Ludwig on this so far.

[martin hall]

Looks to be an original. The possible maker of this type is possibly "Juncker"

They are the economy model as opposed to the deluxe type made of 800 or 925 silver. This type was designed to be worn on the combat tunic or by EM/ NCO's who were not buying their own badge. However, most observers were officers.

Looking at the type of red enamel used, this is the type that was issued from 1914 onwards usually made from a non-magnetic nickel-silver. From 1916 they were made from a magnetic steel/ tin. In the 1920's they used up that type of pre-1918 red enamel centers and the badges tended to be made from a non-magnetic silvered brass.

Some time in the late 1920,s or early 1930,s the type of red enamel used for the centers was changed to a more translucent type of red enamel.

It is hard to judge from the images if this badge is made from brass or nickel-silver but it would appear to have every chance of being a WW1 example,

Chris

Hi Chris
sent you a pm but your inbox is full , thanks to all so far any pointers on value either way as would like to make a fair offer over the week end best martin.

[phild]

The details look like the type that some of the recent references attribute as being possible Deschler manufacture. It looks to be tomback that has a thin silver wash and frosting. I would doubt that it has ever been cleaned or little finish would remain.....just my opinion.....also the green in the recesses is, I believe, verdigris due to the high copper base metal...not any kind of cleaning residue.

I agree that this one is probably post WWI.....but others think that that they are wartime.

I have a lot of respect for Chris's opinions and experience, but on some things I have to disagree with him. In my opinion the 800 silver Juncker badges WERE the WWI award pieces. I think that these can almost be dated by year based on nuances in the makers mark.....location and other details.

I think that other types were private purchase....including most of these stamped ones......but I will agree with Chris that the iron (or steel) bodied ones (these are all Juncker that I have seen) with the silver finish were award pieces....but I think closer to 1918 than 1916.

As for the "German Silver" stamped types....I am unsure right now if they are wartime or post WWI or both.....but I think that they are all private purchase.

Nothing at all wrong are less desirable with private purchase IMO.

There are many reasons why I have been led to the conclusions above....I will say that 30 years ago I was 180 degrees different IMO on these.....but lots of evidence has led to believe what I said.

[90th Light]

I take on board what "phild" is saying and have an equal respect for it. Thus I do not disagree.

On reflection, I agree with what has been observed by others that this badge has no fold-over tabs for the center and the type of hook does not point to Juncker. However, it is not a Meybauer, the bow at the bottom of the wreath is not their one.

As far as what was actually an award piece, I am not sure. My point was that the type which started this is a cheaper "economy" version when compared with the two piece hollow in the middle or one piece solid types made from 800, 925 or 935 silver.

My feeling at this stage is that the deluxe silver marked types were awarded before WW1 ie 1913 and especially to officers. On the other hand, I feel that EM or NCO's who qualified for this badge were awarded the stamped type. This policy would be in line with certain awards like the PLM. When the war got going in 1914 and there was a rapid expansion of the German air service then the hollow examples increasingly became the type awarded to all ranks.

Of course like many German awards, once the recipient had the entry in their Soldbuch, they could go and buy as many examples as they wanted. My belief at this stage is that this hollow type was worn on combat tunic out of choice by some officers, pilots/ observers.

I base some of this belief by what I have seen on unmolested "hate" belts with all the badges pinned on them. Where I have been lucky enough to come across a belt with a pilot or observer badge on it, it has always been a hollow type. In all cases the "hate" belts observed were still in the possession of the families of the WW1 veteran who had put the belt together and brought it back from WW1. One family even had their grandfathers diary where he had carefully noted the day he got each badge on the belt and from where.

I know this is not conclusive proof by any stretch of the imagination but it is a piece of evidence in an interesting puzzle which to my knowledge has not been seriously researched.

As far as what the badge is made from, I agree with phild it could be silvered brass. On the other hand it could also be a nickel which has tarnished brown on the exposed high points. All the hollow badges that I have ever seen directly from WW1 have been made from nickel-silver, nickel or steel/ tin. Of course there are also the 800 to 935 silver types but I am refering to the stamped hollow types here. I also agree with phild and do not think that the badge which started this thread has been cleaned in any way. What we see is simply wear, the ravages of time and poor storage.

The real question for me now, are the frosted white-silver badges like this one started life as from the period 1914-18 or are the frosted types all post WW1 ?

Very interesting thread,

Chris

[avensis2000]

I was browsing through some old A.Klenau's auction catalogues from 70's and 80's. What caught my attention, was that very often pilot/observer etc. badges usually shown there were defined as "sammleranfertigung (collector copy) of this very rare badge", very rarely they have been described as original. Too bad the pictures in catalogues are quite poor quality and black&white, so difficult to check them carefully.

I just started wondering if he was just being extra careful to avoid selling copies as originals or what's the reason for that?

This has nothing to do with the badge shown in this thread - I was just generally thinking "aloud"....

[martin hall]

Thanks to all so far, managed to find a magnit i tested it ,and all of the badge including pin is non-magnetic any more opinions on value would be great even in a pm as i know some people do not like posting values best and thanks martin.