Pour le Merite's post war?

[pzrwest]

If not mistaken Nazi political medals were not reproduced in 57 style(de-Nazified).

[speedytop]

Les,

" It's the formal letter of the law as established by the Ordensgesetz established in 1957 that regulated what could be worn and manufactured publicly ..."

We are writing here about a PlM (not original), presumable made post 1945.

As streptile also mentioned, that has absolutely nothing to do with the law from 1957.

In the law from 1957 is nothing written about the production of copies (not originals).
There is something written about the production of the allowed pieces of the Third Reich with a changed design, what we meanwhile call 57er (1957 version).

But there you can find nothing about the production of a copy like a PlM or about oak leaves to the KC.

Once more, the production of a PlM before or after the law from 1957 had nothing to do with the law from 1957.

Uwe

Correction in Post 13:
If you buy 20 KC in silver, you have to pay 480,- DM, that is for one KC 24,- DM.

[Les]

"We are writing here about a PlM (not original), presumable made post 1945."

You Ritterkreuzen which are not related to this thread, and now you want to remind me this thread is about PlMs....ok..

My comments were directed to making people aware that ALL medals, not only Third Reich items, were banned/prohibited by the Allied Commissioners in all of the occupation zones between 1945-1949. Starting in 1949, the Allied military governors were replaced by High Commissioners, and Germany was granted various degrees of self-governance. In 1955, the peace treaty between the BRD and western allies occupying Germany came into effect. The ban on Nazi related items was and still is part of the 1949 BRD constitution. The 1957 Ordensgesetz was the first formal regulation that dealt with what awards could be worn.

The same law, does mention fake or false medals, and that would cover copies to prevent someone claiming a medal with a swastika was fake, and therefore they could not be charged with violating the law. Fake medals are mentioned....

• Das Tragen gefälschter Orden und nationalsozialistischer Zeichen sowie das Tragen von echten Ehrenzeichen durch dazu nicht befugte Personen wird als Ordnungswidrigkeit mit Bußgeld geahndet.

"In the law from 1957 is nothing written about the production of copies (not originals)."

The law does mention fake or false copies, and by using a little logic, a fake or false copy can not exist or be worn, unless someone makes it. The existence of a fake, means someone made it, and why make only one illegal and not both?

The 1957 law mentions specific Imperial medals that can be worn, and that they could be worn provided they were of the same original design, and by extension, the person was entitled to wear them.


"But there you can find nothing about the production of a copy like a PlM or about oak leaves to the KC.

Once more, the production of a PlM before or after the law from 1957 had nothing to do with the law from 1957."

If you are remotely inferring that PlMs were made in Germany between 8 May 1945-1949 when the manufacture of any/all medals were banned, and later between 1949-1957 that beyond any doubt proves PlM copies were made in Germany, I and many other people would be VERY interested to know if you have solid proof of that, and if you or anyone else makes that claim or inference, that you can back it up with facts and not speculation.

Someone I know once contacted S&L to ask them about their post-war manufacture of the PlM. I was told S&L did acknowledge they made PlM copies late in the 1950's, but gave little or no details beyond that. If you or anyone else has evidence they made PlM copies, before 1957....then please provide us with verifiable facts and not opinions.

Nowhere have I said there is a "1957 PlM". What I've said is that S&L PlM copies made between May 1945 and 1949 would have directly violated Allied occupation laws which banned public wearing, manufacturing, etc, of all military and politically related medals. Between 1949-1955, the situation was changing, although Third Reich items were still banned. The precise situation of Imperial awards was clearly specified in the 1957 law, and from all evidence I've seen and read, S&L 's PlM copies were made after, not before the law.


Les

[Les]

The English language version of the 1957 Ordensgesetz wiki article eliminates the mention of specific Imperial awards from WWI, that the German version includes;

Note, the 1957 law specifically includes the Pour le Merite, and this may be part of what has lead some people to call the S&L made copy that first appeared in 1957, as the "1957" model or something similar. Seeing that the 1957 law does mention the Pour le Merite, saying there is -no- connection of 1957, and any PlM is not entirely correct.

Bear in mind, the same law also states that "false copies", and also Third Reich items, is subject to how a German federal or state prosecutor wanted to view the law broadly or narrowly.

.............

Ehrensold

Die Bundesregierung übernahm 1957 nur die Ehrensoldverpflichtungen aus dem Ersten Weltkrieg. Dies umfasste namentlich folgende höchste Kriegsauszeichnungen:<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference">[2]</sup>

• Königreich Preußen
  • Pour le Mérite
  • Goldenes Militärverdienstkreuz
  • Kreuz der Inhaber des Hausordens von Hohenzollern mit Schwertern
  
  
• Königreich Bayern
  • Militär-Max-Joseph-Orden
  • Militär-Sanitäts-Orden
  • Tapferkeitsmedaille
  
  
• Königreich Sachsen
  • Militär-St. Heinrichs-Orden
  • Goldene Militär-St. Heinrichs-Medaille
  
  
• Königreich Württemberg
  • Militärverdienstorden
  • Goldene Militärverdienstmedaille
  
  
• Großherzogtum Baden
  • Militär-Karl-Friedrich-Verdienstorden
  • Karl Friedrich-Militär-Verdienst-Medaille
  
  
• Österreich
  • Maria-Theresia-Orden
  • Goldene Tapferkeitsmedaille
  
  

Mit dem Rechtsbereinigungsgesetz vom 19. Februar 2006 wurde diese Regelung (§ 11 OrdenG a.F.) aufgehoben.

[speedytop]

Les,

"Fake medals are mentioned...."

First of all, please show me the part in the original law from 1957, where is something written like:

"Das Tragen gefälschter Orden ... wird als Ordnungswidrigkeit mit Bußgeld geahndet." (Wearing fake medals ... will be considered a breach of the law and punished with a fine)

I'm not interested in Wikipedia articles or other related articles, based on the Wikipedia articles.

Uwe

[Nigel N]

Daniel asked if anyone could help him to identify the makers and the production dates of the PLM's he showed!!!
This argument over rules, regulations etc. is not helping Daniel at all, and has, IMO spoiled yet another thread!
Lets stick to the original topic? I for one, would like to know if the first two PLM's shown are post WW2 S&L pieces????
-Nigel

[Don D.]

They are post WW2 S&L PLMs. Probably close to post Vietnam. The 57er discussion has some merit in that proper terminology and classification on the forums is important. To my knowledge, Imperial awards were not subject to the 1957 reissue laws and therefore to call them 57ers is incorrect and misleading. At best, they are wear's copies for an ever shrinking group of guys that died out with Ernst Junger.

[Nigel N]

Thanks Don
And the last PLM is just a modern made piece (of junk?) I guess!
-Nigel

[Don D.]

Yep.

[streptile]

I for one, would like to know if the first two PLM's shown are post WW2 S&L pieces?

Yes they are. I think this was answered before the detour. I agree, the discussion on the 57 regs is interesting.

[speedytop]

Les? No answer is also an answer?


Don and streptile, thank you for your assistance here.

Nigel, I thought, that just you as moderator in the 1957 section should be interested in "problems" with the 1957 law.
As we can see here, it is not only important in the 1957 section, where such problems had been discussed over and over again, but with sometimes less success.

Short abstract:
In the law from 1957 is nothing written about copies or fakes/forgeries.
In the law from 1957 is nothing written about the production of Imperial awards, and there is nothing written about a post war production of Imperial awards like an IC 1914 or a PlM. There is nothing written about the production of copies of for example Oaks/Swords to the Knight Cross.
These pieces are listed like many others as wearable without limitations or a change of the design.
Some very special decorations are listed in respect to the old wearers with the gratuity/honorarium.


I don't know, when St&L first produced a copy of a PlM since May 1945. That is for me not important, because these pieces are not originals, manufactored in June 1945, in 1955 or in 2013.
But I know, that all the decorations, German or foreign, could be bought at least since 1951.
And I see no reason, why just a well known decoration like a PlM should not have been produced since this time.

Several dealers offered all decorations since 1951/1952, for example Eduard Schiffer September 1951 and March 1952:



Or May 1953 Mr. Knoth, 32 of 99 available decorations:



Or September 1956 Mr. Sedlatzek, all Imperial and several foreign decorations:



Uwe

[Montgomery Burns]

congratulations Uwe

what you show here is the horror of the collector community... ...
the horror of known experts,, book writers and dealers who know wrong from right ....

I can only congratulate you for showing this solid investigation....

but I wonder if this will ever get accepted.




looking from my observations ,,I can tell you I fear this what you show here is far bigger as you may think .

and these reproductions may stretch farther back in to history as one may think .
( Iron crosses collectors community is older as 1870 )

production quality may be much higher as the so far known 1957 quality ....









regards kay

[Leroy]

None of this is new to anyone who has looked at the subject.

Herr Schiffer claimed at that time (1951-2) that the pieces he was selling were his leftover original stock from the war years. Were they? Maybe, maybe not. Where is the PROOF, either way?

Herr Knoth's "pricelist" in 1953, said by him in the "REVUE" article to be from S&L, may, in fact, be from S&L, but we will never know because no one from S&L was talked to or interviewed for that tabloid article, the photos in the article of Herr Knoth's shop appeared to show plenty of awards in original wartime boxes (he had been a dealer during the war, as well), and the awards on the pricelist match also what Souval, in Austria, was making (without legal impediment) at the same time. If Herr Knoth was not worried about legal considerations, why did he say in the article that he only sold pieces to people who could prove, through paperwork, that they were entitled to them? Again, someone please show us examples of actual pieces sold by him, with PROOF.

Herr Sedlatzek's catalog of 1956 (he had also been a legitimate wartime dealer) is also interesting, as I personally know people who dealt with him (in the 60's) and they have told me repeatedly that virtually his entire stock of swastika awards came from Souval.

Although Uwe and I disagree on some matters, I believe at least some limited re-striking of awards IN GERMANY occurred prior to 1957, and most likely in the early 1950's, BUT NOT (at least in Ludenscheid) in the immediate postwar years (1945-49) and in this regard I agree completely with Les. This is also supported directly by statements made personally by Herr Assmann (the last surviving wartime member of that firm, located only a few hundred yards from S&L) to Andreas Klein. What may have been done elsewhere is unknown to me (as is the status of PLM production anywhere), but it is inescapably true that tens of thousands of finished and half-finished pieces (and components) were left over for many years after the war (again, ask Andreas and also Bass D, and look at "1957" EKI's from Deumer with "L/11" on the back).

Believe whatever you wish to believe.

[Montgomery Burns]

on the other hand I wonder what this pre 1945 production has to do with imperial plm's to begin with .

I wonder

did someone ever saw a
"known to belong to ww1 rewarded PLM type "
in such mint condition it made you wonder it came from 1952 ?





hmmmm ?

[speedytop]

Yes Leroy, believe whatever you wish to believe.

When I remember it correct, only a few decorations with "tens of thousands" pieces were left over?
And not hundreds of decorations with "tens of thousands" pieces?

And all these dealers in 1952 and 1953, together with Mr. Knoth, could only sell left over pieces?





Remember, each of the 99 orders and decorations at Mr. Knoth could be ordered in higher amounts, 20 pieces or more, whatever you want.

Yes Leroy, we disagree furthermore.


In the article about Mr. Knoth we can find other interesting sentences in 1953:



- Some (not only one!) manufacturers started again with the production of orders and decorations.
- St&L is named as one of the manufacturing companies, and St&L is named as his major supplier.

And once more the reality, that St&L produced sports badges, at least since 1948.

Uwe