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**grueni1208** · 07-20-2013, 08:04 AM

No. 1:

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**grueni1208** · 07-20-2013, 08:05 AM

No. 2:

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**grueni1208** · 07-20-2013, 08:07 AM

No. 3:

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**reichenberg** · 07-20-2013, 08:14 AM

I would say that the first one is certainly a post war 1957 re issue PLM by S&L, but I cannot be more precise about the actual date of manufacture.
I cannot comment on the second one except to say that I don't like it as much as the first one.

**speedytop** · 07-20-2013, 10:24 AM

Hi,

"... the first one is certainly a post war 1957 re issue PLM by S&L"

There is no 1957 re issue, and there is no 1957 PlM.

Uwe

**reichenberg** · 07-20-2013, 10:30 AM

OK then - it's a post 1957 PLM by S&L. It's not a modern fake IMO, though I am worried that the second one might be, or perhaps a cheap repro?

**grueni1208** · 07-20-2013, 11:01 AM

I detect some marks on the first PlM.

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**streptile** · 07-20-2013, 01:55 PM

Hi Daniel,

In my opinion the first two are post WWII (maybe 1960s) PLMs by S&L. One has a loop added with "Imperial" looking marks of a 938, crown and a half moon, but I think this loop was not original to the PLM. I also do not know if the loop is an original Imperial-era loop; but I don't recognize it from any other Imperial awards I know.

Both S&Ls are nice and collectible -- especially the one with the 800 mark, as some were indeed made from .800 silver gilt. The unmarked one is probably later, and made in bronze gilt.

The third piece, with only one side enameled, I don't know. But I think it is a late (post 1970s) collector's copy.

**speedytop** · 07-21-2013, 07:13 AM

Hi reichenberg,

"... then - it's a post 1957 PLM by S&L."

It could be made before 1957. Why are you so fixed on the year 1957?

Uwe

**streptile** · 07-21-2013, 12:02 PM

I think Uwe's point is that the PLM was manufactured more or less continuously from the time of the war (and before, of course) until well past the war. It was not a prohibited decoration that had to be rehabilitated in 1957. It had nothing to do with the laws reintroducing the awards of the Third Reich for wear in the BRD. It was simply an old Imperial award that was manufactured (in ever decreasing quality) throughout the 20th C.

So 1957 has nothing to do with this award. That date is incidental and meaningless in connection with the PLM.

**Les** · 07-21-2013, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by streptile View Post

I think Uwe's point is that the PLM was manufactured more or less continuously from the time of the war (and before, of course) until well past the war. It was not a prohibited decoration that had to be rehabilitated in 1957. It had nothing to do with the laws reintroducing the awards of the Third Reich for wear in the BRD. It was simply an old Imperial award that was manufactured (in ever decreasing quality) throughout the 20th C.

So 1957 has nothing to do with this award. That date is incidental and meaningless in connection with the PLM.

During the Allied occupation of Germany, -ALL- military medals were prohibited from being worn, displayed, manufactured, etc. This included Third reich era awards and decorations, -and- Imperial and Weimar era awards, various state and house awards, and so on. The Allied occupation laws were in effect from 8 May 1945 until the fall of 1949, when the Federal Republic of Germany came into existence. The initial laws written for the 1949 German constituion, included the ban on military awards. When the Bundeswehr was established in November 1955, the question of whether previous awards could be worn, was raised. If previous awards included a Hakenkreuz or swastika as part of the design, that had to be removed or the awards, decoration, or whatever could not be worn or otherwise displayed. In 1956, this was written into the new German laws, and the next year (1957) newly made medals without the swastika as part of the design were produced by a few post-war manufacturers, with S&L producing a wide array of TR era and Imperial awards. Some post-war made medals with the swastika were made/assembled from wartime dies with the intention of selling them to collectors as "original" wartime pieces, however, they were not authorized by the Federal Republic, or even legal.

**speedytop** · 07-21-2013, 06:59 PM

Hi Les,

we can find several announcements of sales, beginning in 1951 (up to now I don't find earlier announcements).
All these decorations were made in the original design.

To believe, that the Germans don't produce orders and decorations before the law from 1957, is a little bit naive.

In a magazine from May 1953 we can find a report about a seller in the town Essen, with several pictures (please see also Dietrich Maerz, The Knights Cross of the Iron Cross, page 374 and following).

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...2&postcount=16

Please note: if you wanted to buy for example 1 KC in silver, you had to pay 32,- DM. If you buy 20 KC in silver, you have to pay 240,- DM, that is for one KC 24,- DM.

This is something about that, what the Allies wanted and the Germans did!

And see the list in the same book from Dietrich Maerz on page 382/383 from September 1956 with the handwritten remark "original pieces as awarded". That was price list No. 7 since the end of the war. I don't know, when Sedlatzek offered his first price list past May 1945, but he offered a price list in an advertisment at the end of 1952 (Preisliste kostenlos).

Uwe

**Les** · 07-21-2013, 07:20 PM

Uwe, the laws of the Allied occupation period between May 1945 and the formation of the Federal Republic in 1949, and what Germans did after 1949 are two different things. I also said that some companies (S&L most noticeably) made Third Reich awards after 8 May 1945 (see Maerz....as you suggested to me) when doing so was technically illegal and punishable under Allied occupation laws, if the military powers wished to do so.

For those interested in the formal laws, please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordensgesetz

The laws in effect during the occupation, and early years of the Federal Republic did not prohibit private ownership, but did limit the public wearing of medals during the Allied Occupation period between 1945-1949, and to a lesser degree until the final western powers peace treaty with Germany signed in 1955, and the formation of the Bundeswehr.

There is often a distinction between the formal letter of the law, and what people do, and are willing to overlook. It's the formal letter of the law as established by the Ordensgesetz established in 1957 that regulated what could be worn and manufactured publicly, and not what people did within their homes or owned/sold privately.

**Leroy** · 07-21-2013, 10:24 PM

An interesting read IF you pay close attention to what is claimed and what is proven: http://www.germancombatawards.com/th...er=1869&page=6

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Pour le Merite's post war?

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