Announcement

**Eric Stahlhut** · 08-04-2004, 10:12 PM

Here's the mark on the Austrian pin:

**Eric Stahlhut** · 08-04-2004, 10:18 PM

Front of Austrian.

**CRBeery** · 08-05-2004, 08:45 AM

Eric,
Here is a great old thread where a name is mentioned for the maker. This is a good one to look at if you like these awards.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=binder

Chet

**Tim Tezer** · 08-05-2004, 12:07 PM

Better still, go to this thread:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ead.php?t=3964

This was a couple of years ago, but we came to a reasonably logical conclusion that Binder Bros., a German firm, made these. However, it is still not absolutely proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. I have seen a post-war Binder Bros. hallmark on a silver brooch that had the B's contained in interlocking ovals. Although they might have changed their hallmark, it does make you wonder. It could have been an Austrian firm, but obviously B.S.&Co. is not the same as B.B.&Co., so that leaves us back at square one.

... and thank you for not adding another preposterous suggestion that they were made in the U.S. or Great Britain!

Tim

**Rick Research** · 08-05-2004, 12:18 PM

The similarity of the "&Co." is indeed interesting and I agree worth mulling over.

I've never really considered that the BB&Co's could have been Austrian because of the wartime requirement that base metal DECORATIONS were marked with an asterisk mark. I have both a mangled Austrian TWM and a Liakat in silver with Swords which both bear the Austrian base metal asterisk.

Attached Files

Liakat Austmark.jpg (4.7 KB, 240 views)

**stogieman** · 08-05-2004, 04:50 PM

But why an "*" ?

... because Boys & Girls, when the "glorious Fatherland" had defeated all its' enemies, the Austrians (promised) to replace the base-metal piece with its' appropriate silver or gold award!

Just in case this was not well known...

**VerKuilen Ager** · 08-05-2004, 05:21 PM

Ok, I'm confused: 1) was the official Halbmond specified to be in a precious metal? and 2) would the Austrians have felt obligated to replace a base metal foreign award after the war?

What was at the root of this replacement policy? "Here's an award: it's a crappy base-metal substitute, but we'll replace it after the war" or "thanks for the donation of your gold/silver, here's a 'time of iron' substitute"?

**Rick Research** · 08-05-2004, 07:41 PM

The original TURKISH made TWMs seem to have been made out of recycled sardine cans, ewwwwwww. (Hence the innumerable "improvements.")

The "*" on Turkish awards probably served the purpose of the pre-war "FR" Austrian TAX stamps on bullion items-- "*" to = "no duty." Neither wartime Austrian-made Turkish award that I have bears any maker name, so Pride Of Workmanship didn't enter in. Presumably they were SHIPPING the things out to Turkey for (presumably) their own troops there.

**stogieman** · 08-05-2004, 08:06 PM

Well, sort of...

Austrian Awards would have been replaced... typically we're speaking about Gold, Silver Bravery medals that were issued in bronze due to the shortage of precious metals... Also, this would apply to The iron crown, Leopold Order, FJO.... I doubt a Turkish award would have been redone, more a case of "habit" and "revenue" to pop 'em with the Asterik.
I brought this up as it's been awhile since we've had a rousing discussion on Imperial Austrian orders and decorations.... thought it would help!

**McCulloh** · 08-05-2004, 08:48 PM

Hmmmm.......

The Austrian badge does look very interesting. Who made it?
We have come a Long Way since this forum started regarding these stars. I have an email from Jamie Cross back in 1998 in my files where he thought that 'BB & Co. was the Birmingham Badge Company and that the stars were post-war exported items. Also, only officers received the "BB & Co" type and enlisteds got the 'tunafish can' ones'. That was the standard view in those days and is in several books no less.
Since then I have spent some serious time looking for clues as to who and what "BB & Co" was/ were and as Tim stated, still do not know for certain.
What we do know for certain is:

1. BB & Co stars were war-time issue and handed out to German officers AND men in Palestine-at least in 1918.
2. They were also awarded to Turkish officers AND Bulgarian AND Austrian officers.
3. They are common in Turkey even today-and widely faked.
4. They were for sale in @1924 in Bannerman's catalogue as souviner bring- backs.
5. The stars were awarded under the new Republic (Attaturk) for service during the revolution and Greek/Allied 'troubles' until the mid 1920s.

Often research involves looking for what is NOT there as well as what is there. I have searched far and wide and on a semi-regular basis for other "B.B. & Co" marked items-theorizing that a jewelry company did not use this logo for a single series of medals only. That is, they would have continued to use it for other items later (as Godet used its marks for silver, plates etc.).
So far, the ONLY such trademark I have found that fits is Binders' of New York (the Massachusetts silver company that also used this trademark had abandoned it by 1914). Binders later moved to New Jersey.

Binders of NY had a very popular line of ladies costume pins for sale from @1910-1920 (still do actually-look at their web site and ebay some time). The most famous was apparently an art deco siamese type cat. But they SPECIALIZED in making Jewelry CATCHS!

The Iron Halfmoon has a catch system that is awkward and unique to German medals. This has also caused me to wonder, " why"?

My latest pet theory is that Binders of Ludenscheid, before August,1914, took delivery of a couple of crates of catchs made by their cousins in the USA for use on their own line of costume pins. The war broke out and they later got a contract in 1916 for the stars. Given the shortage of war metals, they used the older costume catchs and welded them onto the stars.

The stars themselves are of a quality and manufacture that denotes German or Austrian precision manufacture. Also, the Sultan's Tugrah is wrong-and according to Meterin, this was a very big political insult in the Ottoman Empire and a decisive argument (he feels) for their 'foreign' manufacture. Given the terrible shortages and lack of technical capacity in the Ottoman empire in 1914-1918, I highly doubt their mint subcontracted an order for @60,000 + stars to a local Istanbul factory and they definetly wouldn't buy from Bulgaria.
Germany was Turkey's largest & friendliest trading partner, so it's logical to assume German manufacture.

It's just a theory however and the proof is out there -somewhere...

**Tim Tezer** · 08-06-2004, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by McCulloh

5. The stars were awarded under the new Republic (Attaturk) for service during the revolution and Greek/Allied 'troubles' until the mid 1920s.

I have never heard of these being awarded during the Turkish War for Independence, although it is certainly possible. Kemal would have had the authority, under the original statutes of the award, to issue them prior to the country being made a Republic, but is there any evidence that was actually done?

But getting back to the discussion of makers, I think Rick's point is pretty good - there are many known Austrian copies bearing the star punch. The BB&Co. pieces don't. All of the evidence still points to German manufacture.

Tim

**McCulloh** · 08-06-2004, 07:45 PM

Tim:
Waaaaaaay back when this thread first started @2000 AD, I contacted Meterin and he sent scans of award docs from 1921 and 1924. The scans were enormous (2000 dpg.) but I sent copies to Rick.

**Eric Stahlhut** · 08-06-2004, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by Tim Tezer

But getting back to the discussion of makers, I think Rick's point is pretty good - there are many known Austrian copies bearing the star punch. The BB&Co. pieces don't. All of the evidence still points to German manufacture.

Tim

The star punch was not used 100% of the time on the Austrian-made awards.

I'm starting to wonder if the examples with a horizontal pin were made in Austria. The original Turkish- issued pieces had horizontal pins, and Austrians were known for producing awards with horizontal pins. The award in question was not a state award, so it could have been produced by manufacturers who produced the less 'valued' awards.

I have never encountered a German-made example with a horizontal pin. They are all vertical. Does anyone have a German-made example (known maker) with a horizontal pin?

**Tim Tezer** · 08-07-2004, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by McCulloh

Tim:
Waaaaaaay back when this thread first started @2000 AD, I contacted Meterin and he sent scans of award docs from 1921 and 1924. The scans were enormous (2000 dpg.) but I sent copies to Rick.

That's pretty definitive. It makes perfect sense, however, as the Sultan was not awarding decorations to Turkish troops fighting under Kemal, but the statutes of the TWM gave Kemal the authority to award them, as I mentioned before. It would have been the only way he could reward acts of gallantry on the spot, as the Turkish Independence Medal was not introduced until a few years later. For those of you not familiar with it, the Independence Medal became the only authorized Turkish medal after the Ottoman medals and orders were abolished, and remained the only award sanctioned for wear in uniform until 1983.

But I digress....

Tim

Announcement

B.B. & Co. Maker Clue (Eisernes Halbmond)

B.B. & Co. Maker Clue (Eisernes Halbmond)

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread