Hohenzollern Honor Medal w/Crown...Really?

[McCulloh]

This is ringing a bell. Could this be another "Doorn" award?

[saschaw]

This is not the royal but the princely House order of Hohenzollern, so no - not at all related to the "Doorn era".

[Wild Card]

Thank you for clarifying that point.

Further to the issue at hand, keep in mind that the royal Hohenzollern Order, which was founded on 16 January 1851 was awarded through the king of Prussia. As such like, for instance, the Order of the Red Eagle it lost it’s official status at the end of the war in November 1918.

Now, quite separate of this is the princely Hohenzollern Order which was goes back to 5 December 1841. We could consider this be an order of a separate Imperial German state like Bavaria, Oldenburg or Baden; but because it seems to have the status of some sort of “family order”, unlike these others it’s legitimacy continued on after the war. Not only was it awarded fairly liberally after the war but additional grades and classes were created on into the 1940’s. As I pointed out in post #4 - “I believe that such a medal may have been instituted in 1941.”

This is my interpretation of the situation. Any corrections or clarifications are most welcome.

[Indyarch]

Thanks for the input Wild Card. Several of the princely Hohenzollern orders/crosses/medals listed in OEK are listed as (ab 1941). Several also say "Verleihungen fraglich". Now, my translation skills are poor.....not sure what the "ab" means, but I believe the other means loosely "awards questionable".

If awards were issued up to 1941, is it possible that the records are not that complete for the later years as to what was awarded?

I have also compared the crown to those of 3rd class crosses of the order that I've found online (emedals and Huesken) and it looks very much the same. The weight and diameter of the medal (and swords) matches the specs listed in von Hessenthal's book (Die Ehrenzeichen des Deutschen Reiches). I guess I'm hoping that this medal w/X & crown could be a good find. What do you think?

[Wild Card]

Hello Indyarch,

To clarify a couple of points from your post #19 - yes, as I understand it, "Verleihungen fraglich" would translate as “awards questionable”; but “ab 1941” would translate as “from (or since) 1941” and not “up to 1941”.

Now, when you say and ask (again in post #19) “I guess I'm hoping that this medal w/X & crown could be a good find. What do you think?”, I think that we should go back to the question that you raised in post #5 - “Since they are considered rare (Nimmergut does not even list a value), do you think enough were awarded for one to appear on the open market today?”

To this, I can only ask why not? Stranger things have, albeit very rarely, happened. As a matter of fact, I know of a Hannoverian life saving medal to a very interesting recipient that came to surface at a flea market in... you guessed it... Indianapolis. Assuming that the medal in question is “good”, how much does it mean to you and your collection; and, in the end, how much are you willing to roll the dice for?

Regards,

Wild Card

[Indyarch]

Hello Wild Card. Thank you for your inspirational comments.

With the "ab 1941", is it safe to assume that this variation was not issued (nor even available for issue) prior to 1941? And if it was issued after 1941, what might it have been issued for? Retro for WWI? WWII? Another conflict? Could it still be issued today by the Hohenzollern disenndents?

Lots of "What ifs". I look forward to hearing additional comments.

[Wild Card]

Hello Indyarch,

Yes, I would agree “...that this variation was not issued (nor even available for issue) prior to 1941”. I am inclined to think that any (if any) awards for WWII service could not be worn during the war years because of Third Reich regulations. Surely some other Forum members can give us a clear reading on this point.

As to retro WWI awards, I honestly do not know, but I doubt that there were any of this decoration. After all, over twenty years had passed to take care of any retro awards; but then that raises the question as to what the purpose of this award would have been - again any available information on this would be welcome. Lastly, as far as I know, or suspect, insignia to this order can be, and still is, awarded by the Hohenzollern family.

Does this make sense?

Regards,

Wild Card

[Indyarch]

Yes, that all makes perfect sense to me. It's the uncertainty that drives me crazy. I wish there were definitive answers easily available.

If anyone has more information regarding the later years awarding of these Hohenzollern medals or can direct me to some good references I would greatly appreciate it.