Grand Cross

[Rich G]

Tony

I remember you showing me this Star at the SOS when we were stiing at the WA table. There was no doubt that the EK on it matched the S&L EK1. The quality of it was astounding!

Super piece

Rich

[Tiger 1]

Greg, Gerd and Rich,

Thanks for the compliments.

Rich, having seen the Star at the SOS you do know that the quality is well beyond the run of the mill repros. I just love it.

Thanks again.

Tony

[gregM]

Tony,
Those are some great looking pieces!!!
If I remember right--about a year ago you posted some pictures of your
collection in which you had at least one museum copy GK. Would you
mind sharing those with us again?

Thanks,
Greg

[Bill M]

Starting with the 1870 GCs. Both are identical in core detail with a slightly different black finish. One is marked with the Wagner trademark while the other is 13 Loth. Having identical cores I assume that they are both by Wagner. three piece construction with magnetic cores. I believe these to be c.1914-1918 era examples.

--Tony, if the Germans stopped using the 'Loth' measurements in the 19th century, why would you date the 1870 GC ca. 1914-18?

[Gerd Becker]

--Tony, if the Germans stopped using the 'Loth' measurements in the 19th century, why would you date the 1870 GC ca. 1914-18?

Tony,

Bill raises a good point here. I am quite sure, that "Löth" wasn´t used anymore before 1914 in any case. So its probably an ealier piece? Maybe 1890s-1900?

Even better, if true

best,
Gerd

[Bill M]

--For your approval (or not )....
--A match for the 'alternate' or 'second style' Wagner 'Loth' mark?

[Tiger 1]

Thank you Greg,

The 1914 GC is the same. That one is in my collection. Maybe Tom can repost that picture here.

Tony

[Tiger 1]

Bill and Gerd,

That's a very good question.

Sometimes one gets locked in looking from a certain viewpoint. I was looking at both pieces from a fit and finish point of view that I may have missed the obvious. I noticed the stamps but put them down as a minor difference considering the close similarity of all the other features. There certainly is a different quality to the core paint between the two. The construction is identical for practical purposes. The ribbon loops are the same.

These GC are so alike that I formed an opinion that they are from the same era. Namely the later one. I may have jumped to a premature conclusion. The 13 Loth mark was out of official favor in the mid 1870s if I remember right. Could it have been used to mark commemorative pieces made during the Jubilee period? I guess so if I was going to accept it being made as such much later in 1914-1918. The 13 Loth being a variant mark is holding less water as a theory.

A very interesting question indeed!

Best regards,

Tony

[Brian S]

What frame of reference are we using to date these so precisely???

[Gerd Becker]

Hi guys,

were "Löth" and "Loth" used in the same time-period or is one of them older?

I see points above the o and i read "Löth" not "Loth" Is that right?

best,
Gerd

[Tiger 1]

Brian,

Precisely is hard to do. I based some of my opinion on the Wagner tm stamped on the back of one of the 1870 GCs. I haven't taken my 1914 Weiderhollungspange off the ribbon since I got it but I believe the Wagner tms are the same or very similar. Thus c. 1914-1918 time frame. Makes sense to me but I'm always open to new info. I will have to look at it again soon.

The second reason is subjective. The "style " of the core details are more consistant with the 1914-1918 period than a contemporary 1870. I'm not sure exactly how to explain it. The original period 1870s are a bit more archaic(?).

Would you or anyone else know if there was a diffence in the Imperial crowns worn by Wilhelm I and Wilhelm II and the fellow in between them, Freidrich Wilhelm? An era cooralation may lie in that answer.

GC size EKs were sometimes were affixed to the flagpole tops of various Regiments . If I remember right both Bowen and Previtera mention this in their respective books.

Tony

[Blitz]

Lovely, just lovely!

[Biro]

Again, a wonderful collection Tony...

Interesting that even in the finely made copy pieces by Wagner there is no attempt made to dip the eye into the frame as per originals.

Presumably this was an intentional design characteristic for copy pieces as I would have thought this detail would be especially pertenent to Wagner....the original 'architect' of such......

Fingers crossed for the '70 GK (personally, I'd be angling for the lovely Wagner & Sohn stamped piece with the familiar style of '7' )


Marshall

[Tom Y]

Here are some big scans of the 1914. This side

[Tom Y]

That side