Fleabay Oldtimer

[VtwinVince]

The photos the seller posted on this one were terrible, but I thought it had potential. Now I'm trying to figure out the medal on the end. I thought it was something from Hessen, but can't find it anywhereThe reverse says 'Militaer Verdienst'. Any guesses?

[VtwinVince]

I think I've got it: Schaumburg-Lippe 1870 Military Merit Medal in Silver. The sabres are missing from the ribbon, hence the holes.

[römischIX]

yeah - `cos the ones without sabers are very rare and so you got a better price for it.. that`s my opinion.

[MauserKar98k]

Sweet bar!

[Wild Card]

I find it interesting that the 1870-71 medal does not have any bars on it; but beyond that there are a couple of points regarding the Schaumburg-Lippe medal that I think are worth mentioning.

First, yes for whatever reason, it certainly does appear that the crossed sabers were once affixed to the ribbon and are now missing.

The second thing is the öse of the medal. From what I understand, there are two types of this medal. The first type, as seen below, has a separate öse which is secured by a pin. Then in 1914, a second type was introduced, to deal with the dwindling supply of medals in inventory, which has a more conventional type of öse, such as the one on the bar shown above.

My knowledge of telling good bars from bad is extremely limited; and I do not mean for this information to be critical of this bar. I just thought that this additional information might be of interest.

Regards,

Wild Card

[MauserKar98k]

I find it interesting that the 1870-71 medal does not have any bars on it;

Wild Card

It's likely that the guy died before 1895 when the Gefechtspangen were authorized, especially since he was around for the 1848 Revolutions. Notice the lack of the 1897 "Zitronenorden" as well.

[Wild Card]

It's likely that the guy died before 1895 when the Gefechtspangen were authorized, especially since he was around for the 1848 Revolutions. Notice the lack of the 1897 "Zitronenorden" as well.

Absolutely, that would be correct.

[VtwinVince]

Wild Card, I am aware of the two different types of Oesen on this medal. I have studied the construction of this bar in detail, and the Lippe medal has not been swapped out or fiddled with. Also, it does not appear to be a Spangenstueck, so I'm a little bit mystified about this

[Wild Card]

Hi VtwinVince,

I am mystified as well. I do not know if these medals are copied or faked (although I do seem to remember seeing them in various sales catalogs of the time), but as far as yours is concerned, that does not even enter into the discussion. From what I can see in the photo, yours is 100% correct; and if it wasn’t, I know that you would catch it and say so.

So where does that leave us? Having established in post #6 that the recipient died twenty years before the introduction of the second type was introduced, if this is a second type medal, it was put on the bar after his death. One possibility that comes to mind is what might be a similar situation with the medal bar of Freiherr Herman Ludwig Adolph von Wangenheim -

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...im#post4552611

In that case, his St. Henry was removed which was no doubt sent back to the Orders Chancellory and then replaced with the Prussian general merit medal (a curious choice); but then, and more appropriate to our present case, his Saxon long service cross was removed and replaced with a Württemberg military merit medal (spangenstuck). What I am getting at here is the possibility that the original first type medal along with the sabers on your bar may have similarly been removed (a family keepsake?) and then later replaced with a second type medal.

Just a theory. Unfortunately, I doubt that we will ever know the answer which is even more frustrating in that I cannot help but feel that the holder of this bar must have had other decorations in other places - on the chest, around the neck.

Regards,

Wild Card

[VtwinVince]

Wild Card, you could be right about this one. I know the precedence of the medals is goofy and the Lippe medal appears to be a later issue, but all the medals are sewn in with the same thread, and in the same manner, so it looks like they were all mounted at the same time. I guess it's also a little unusual for this type of mounting with felt backing for this early a bar. Normally I would expect a trapezoidal arrangement with no backing.