Latvian Fake!!!!!!!
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Let's be a bit more specific to help out here, Andy...Originally posted by Kraal View Post
John,
Thanks for continuing to post your crosses.
The 1870 EK1 is indeed a fake, as is the 1870/1914 Spange.
The 1870 EK2 is a very nice Type B, and the oaks look good also
Best regards,
Streptile
Looking for ROUND BUTTON 1939 EK1 Spange cases (LDO or PKZ)Comment
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I wonder because I thought someone who owns a KMST with one of the rarer backsides should know about Latvians..Originally posted by streptile View PostLet's be a bit more specific to help out here, Andy...
John,
Thanks for continuing to post your crosses.
The 1870 EK1 is indeed a fake, as is the 1870/1914 Spange.
The 1870 EK2 is a very nice Type B, and the oaks look good also
Beside this, I just wanted to leave the better part of informations for you
@jwburchell
Did you clean/polish the crosses by yourself?Comment
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Let me say this about that....
I can understand your knee-jerk reaction and initial one-liner, Andy....and thank you very much, Trevor, for your more helpful feedback. In response to your comment, Andy, about "...someone who owns a KMST...", let me simply say that I am indeed aware that very good Latvian fakes are out there. I saw a display on this a number of years ago when I used to attend the "MAX" in Munroeville. However, that does not make me totally conversant with the characteristics of those fakes. I always refer to this Forum and am grateful for opinion from those who know more than I do on the subject.
Normally, I undertake due diligence and extensively research my items on this and other fora to determine the known facts and formulate my own informed opinion before posting an item for opinions. A search of my earlier postings on this Forum will clearly reflect that fact.
I am guilty of not doing my own research in this instance. Nonetheless, the result is the same and, while I am never happy to learn that one of my items is a fake, it is still better to know that than to not know it.
I have been collecting now for over 50 years and during that time have accumulated a large variety of items from many sources. Back in those days, the body of knowledge and expertise on Third Reich regalia that exists today was simply not available. There was no internet and the early reference books either did not give all the information that a collector required, or it was wrong information that has been corrected over the years. So, there are bound to be some items in my collection that were sold to me and believed by me at the time to have been period originals.
More recently, as I surface items from storage, fellow collectors -including recognized experts and authors - on this Forum have helped me in this exercise (eg. my cased gold CCC). The collector community is much better served today in determining what is a fake and what is a period original, and I salute this Forum as one of those media.
As I now begin to downsize my collection, items are being brought forward for appraisal and assessment - as was my intention in opening this thread. I will next be posting my 1813 EKs and will be equally appreciative of knowledgeable opinions and comments from Forum members on the originality - or not - of those pieces.
Thanks,
John
PS to Andy: No, I did not clean or polish any of the crosses posted here.Comment
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Hey John!
I can understand your situation as collecting nowadays is, even if more expensive, way saver. That there might be some items in your collection which are fake due to not pretty much available informations at this point of time is a problem I didn´t even consider, and, if you feel insulted by my comments, I´d like to excuse myself.
The problems of polishing/cleaning is pretty easy to spot. Look at the backside of the oaks. There is a soft brown patina, while the front is absolutly clean and free of patina. The 1870s EK2 core shows it´s age, the frame instead is near to mint. I can´t think of any way of keeping the frames this clean over 140 years while the core shows this stage of wear. If BOTH were in mint condition I wouldn´t say anything, but a withered core and shiny frames? The same goes for the "KM" Ek2. The core shows some intensive wear, but the frame doesn´t have any patina left. The Godet is fine as is the KMST, the LW might be good as well if you have a completly unworn and locked-away cross (rare, but not impossible).
Usually, if crosses are polished, there remains patina directly around the smaller ring, as humans fat fingers just can´t go there. This is pretty common even for polishing machines. You said you didn´t polish or clean the crosses, so my guess is your seller (or someone else who owned the crosses before) dipped them into some chemical brew. The patina leaves, but the cores (unless repainted) remain the same. After such brews patina rarely comes back, but often pieces gain a grey vail instead, some more, some less. The crosses might be bright, but they don´t have the clear surface anymore. You can often spot this on ebay, when some ***** tried to clean grandpas cross with salt+aluminium mixture.. If you have some experience, you get the patina off with near to no loss of the silver-brightness. Especially pieces that are silvered than rather be made from silver bear that slight veil.
It doesn´t change anything about originality (some collectors threat patina as a part of a original item tough and therefore rate cleaned crosses with a lower value) but you should be aware of this.
Maybe your camera just soaked all of the patina. Can´t tell if that´s the case, but you can
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Yes, unfortunately, as Trevor indicated, the 1870 EK1 is a well known fake, and the chances of finding a genuine 1870 Wiederholungsspange are about as good as finding the Holy Grail. The good news is that the EK2 is nice, along with the Oaks
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That KMST is a beaut!!!pseudo-expertComment
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Sorry to hear about the EK1 John but some of your other crosses are really great. I myself am searching for a 1870 type B since I already have 3 type A's so congradulations I have this same setup in my collection as well and will probably never know if my spange is good or not.
LeeComment
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Post it and you will knowOriginally posted by LeeJ View PostSorry to hear about the EK1 John but some of your other crosses are really great. I myself am searching for a 1870 type B since I already have 3 type A's so congradulations I have this same setup in my collection as well and will probably never know if my spange is good or not.
Lee
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Gentlemen...thanks to each and every one of your for your feedback. Certainly no insult or problem with your initial comment, Andy, but I do appreciate your subsequent kind comment and detailed input which is informative and helpful.
So, I have a bad 1870 EK1 and 1870/1914 Wiederholungsspange...but at least the 1870 EK2 and the 25-year/1895 Jubilaeumsspange Oakleaf Cluster are good (even if they have been previously cleaned by the former owner). Now I know and can be guided accordingly in eventually moving these pieces along to another custodian.
Speaking of previous owners, I delved into my records and determined from whom, when and for how much I purchased the 1870 EK1 & the EK2 with attachments...and it was not really that long ago. They were sold to me by two different dealers at the "MAX" on September 28, 2002....so I'll be kind and assume that even they did not know (a bit late for returns!) and swallow the loss on those. I live and learn.
With some apprehension, I must say that the 1813 EKs that I will post next also came from the same show in Munroeville, albeit from different dealers. I hope that there are not more "Latvians" coming-up! After some of my own research, I will post them here for comment....and we can all learn.
JohnComment
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LOLPost it and you will know
I was going to wait until I had a scanner to post it on this forum unless you guys dont mind pictures from my camera? I posted it on another forum before. I would like to see some actual known authentic peices for comparison but cant seem to find any that are undesputed.Comment
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We might do this on another topic to keep this one save, but just make some picsOriginally posted by LeeJ View PostLOL
I was going to wait until I had a scanner to post it on this forum unless you guys dont mind pictures from my camera? I posted it on another forum before. I would like to see some actual known authentic peices for comparison but cant seem to find any that are undesputed.
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Best regards,
Streptile
Looking for ROUND BUTTON 1939 EK1 Spange cases (LDO or PKZ)Comment
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Thanks Trevor I will have to look into it
Thanks Andy for the pm and sending me the info.
I will see if I still have the photos that I took previously and if not I will just have to take new ones and start a new thread.
I look forward to seeing your 1813's John
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1813 EKs
OK, I am just going to go ahead and post these for your viewing and comment, please.
The pair: EK1 & EK2 - obverse and reverse.Comment
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