1870 EKII, opinions?

[Tim Tezer]

Now just to spice things up a bit (and since I had that dinosaur of a scanner fired up anyway), here is a scan of the entire set from the Vern Bowen collection. Bowen is the author of "The Prussian and German Iron Cross" published in 1979, and still one of the best books on the subject. This photo is not from Bowen's book, but from Andreas Theis' auction catalog, in which many of the crosses from Bowen's collection were sold last year.



This example has a slip-on attachment and is marked by Wagner.

[Tim Tezer]

And the last picture I submit just to show you why I am completely perplexed and I'm not sure about any of these damned spanges. The photo below did not scan well and appears out of focus, but there are two notable things about the spange on this example - 1) that it is a PINBACK, which is also mentioned in Nimmergut as being a legitimate period attachment method, and 2) it does have beading on the cross, even though it doesn't show up in my scan. Another thing that's notable about this picture is its source: it is from "Orden und Ehrenzeichen - Catalog Preussen" by Graf Klenau and . . . you guessed it . . . Peter Sauerwald!



Confusing? You bet! Instead of narrowing it down to just one "probemassige" type, it would appear that almost no two of these spanges are alike.


Tim

[George Stimson]

"I guess that we will just disagree on this as no one can prove with absolution the cross is not original, the oaks,spange or why the pieces is mounted the way it is."

Okay by me.

[Eric Stahlhut]

Spanges, Eichenlaube,etc. etc.

The biggest obstacle to me on this one anyhow is the safety pin type attachment. Gordon has shown a very creditable example with this same attribute, but all of the single bar 1914 EK2s I have all posess a far more sturdier type of pin. This in itself makes me wary of both examples.

[Eric Stahlhut]

I'm sorry if I have ruffled a few feathers and completed the full circle of the discussion, but why would any outfitter use such a flimsy method of supporting a rather substantial and relatively heavy bar?

[Brian S]

Now, per Brian's request, I have scans of the two spanges from the Max Aurich collection, taken from Heyde's book.

Thank you very much. This has been very helpful.

The pinback Wiederholungsspange makes perfect sense for a mounting on an existing medalbar. Probably a request from many vets with very expensive medalbars who had no intention of remounting when a couple of pins did the job.

The lack of beading on the cross on the NON-Wagner pieces likely produced by "the other source". Or, if the pebbling in the background on the bar match the Wagner pieces, maybe an earlier version. Probably Sauerwald found one from an impeccable source and that became the type for him from which all much conform.

[Brian S]

1) that it is a PINBACK, which is also mentioned in Nimmergut as being a legitimate period attachment method, and 2) it does have beading on the cross, even though it doesn't show up in my scan. "Orden und Ehrenzeichen - Catalog Preussen" by Graf Klenau and . . . you guessed it . . . Peter Sauerwald!
Tim

I think Sauerwald expanded his views as he discovered more examples... In this case the Wiederholungsspange George and I and Previtera are convinced with, the Wagner piece with Pebbles around the Cross.