A Rare Find

[kriztof]

Gent's, someone has at last made a rare find!

A marked Ek2 with the pumpkin crown
This might shed some light on the mystery of this particular example.

This is the second one today, so much for hard to find

The cross was posted on GMIC by Tom63 who gave me permission to use his photos.

The mark is one I've not seen before on an EK, HUW
Erste Osterreichisch-Ungarische Metallknopfe- und Metallwaren-Fabrik Heinrich Ulbricht's Witwe, Wien XIII/2.


Chris

[kriztof]

Oh HAPPY DAYS

[Don D.]

Nice. I feel another database thread coming on.

[gregM]

Nice find
Are you sure about the "H" ?

[Roglebk]

Core looks CFZ and so does the frame? Not blued i guess? And now marked with an Austrian maker! I give up

[Ammersee]

I'm skeptical. The core and frame are known Zimmermann products. This new mark, HUW, does not appear on any list. And this cross from Tom63 is the only known example after 90 yrs. of collecting? I think we should at least consider the possibility that the ring was replaced with a ring from a completely different HUW award at some point in the past. I'll wait until Chris finds another one to decide. Gary

[gregM]

I'm not so sure our lists are all that acurate. Plus we know that some cores were used by several different makers and that some makers
used more than one core.

I think finding a maker marked cross is better than associateing a cross
to a maker based on some similarities.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Roglebk]

I'm not so sure our lists are all that acurate. Plus we know that some cores were used by several different makers and that some makers used more than one core.

I think finding a maker marked cross is better than associateing a cross
to a maker based on some similarities.

Just my 2 cents worth.

I agree, but in the CFZ case there's a lot more than "similarities". Problem is that no Imperial made CFZ-marked have surfaced yet, only TR-era made ones. Maybe CFZ bought HUW's dies/parts/finished crosses or the opposite?

Would be nice to know when CFZ started their production or when the company was founded. Wonder if the town records survived the bombing/firestorm.

[kriztof]

I'm not so sure our lists are all that acurate. Plus we know that some cores were used by several different makers and that some makers
used more than one core.
I think finding a maker marked cross is better than associateing a cross
to a maker based on some similarities.
Just my 2 cents worth.

I agree, but in the CFZ case there's a lot more than "similarities". Problem is that no Imperial made CFZ-marked have surfaced yet, only TR-era made ones. Maybe CFZ bought HUW's dies/parts/finished crosses or the opposite?

Would be nice to know when CFZ started their production or when the company was founded. Wonder if the town records survived the bombing/firestorm.

True, all true. I hope this item helps to finally solve the mystery, or do we really want to know

[saschaw]

Would be nice to know when CFZ started their production or when the company was founded. Wonder if the town records survived the bombing/firestorm.

C. F. Zimmermann is in Pforzheim which was destroyed totally in WW2. I have no idea if anything survived.

They were big in business from at least end 19th century and made orders for half of Europe...

[Montgomery Burns]

well after aim reading this I wood say ,,,

I welcome a new maker ,,,

(koch & Berfelt stamp is seen only 2 times ,,on a ek1 screw and ek1 pin
still it is real ..)

zimmerman could sell parts or complete crosses to others ,,,,
same thing S&L did fore firm Fleck & sohn ...

or some other company pressed on shortly with the ek production with leftover stock or tools ...

the amount off story's you can speculate is endlessly...

important is ,,the ring dos not seem to be re soldered
so no replacement.

selling cores and production medals to other company's are normal fore that time .

the cross has a real chance to be a new maker ...

maybe that HUW jeweller (or what ever it was) was owned by Zimmerman
you should take an example off the story off Koch & Berfelt .
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=279627

regards kay

[streptile]

Not sure how I missed this thread before, but I've seen it now.

Very interesting.

I think we should at least consider the possibility that the ring was replaced with a ring from a completely different HUW award at some point in the past.

Gary (or anyone) -- have you seen or heard of any award being made by "HUW"? Or know what the initials stand for?

I think finding a maker marked cross is better than associateing a cross to a maker based on some similarities.

Basically, I agree Greg. But I think we can associate a cross to a maker based on identical components, at least until an example with a different mark surfaces, at which point we should reassess.

[Ammersee]

I've never heard of HUW and don't know what it stands for. I also disagree with Kay. I don't think you can tell if a ring has been replaced if it was done right. Gary

[kriztof]

In my opinion the ring is original and matches the type found on these pieces.

The maker, as stated in my first post is..Heinrich Ulbricht's Witwe
Maker mark can be found, on some orders. Here it is on an FJO

A link that mentions the HUW mark.

http://monarchiahadiipar.hupont.hu/1...zek-tartozekai

[Montgomery Burns]

aim far from being a al known expert in this matter....
and I will be not such expert in a 1000 years ,,no matter what kind off collection I have or how many posts I have ....
let me say that up front .

but if you solder a ring ,,you loose all patina mediately ,,,

as far fore this ring ,,the patina looks older and darker as being there just 1 year ,,
(al do artificial patina is easily possible ....but also recognisable as such)

but maybe daylight pictures show that more clear ...

this ring is in my opinion not doedelyda'd with ....
the mark looks good as well ...
that is only a opinion ,



and my opinion about industrial competition (that wood give a plausible explanation) stands no matter what ...

but it is only my opinion ...

maybe the future revealed what is correct or not .......
and give away I was completely wrong ...

but putting it down as fake or un honourable attempt to fool collectors ...
is going to far to me ...

regards kay