The definition of a Prinzen vs. a Mini EK

[Roglebk]

Would like to discuss where to draw the line between a Prinzengrösse (reduktion) and a mini EK or other award/order.

Is it by size only, or does quality and/or attachment device make a difference too?

[Wild Card]

A good question, Roglebk. While we are at it, could we take it one step further?

Is there any difference between Prinzengrösse and Reduktion; and if so, where is that line drawn?

[gregM]

Ok-- I'll bite.

Something I was told by the oldtimers when I tried to describe my
mini Ek1 screwback as a prinzen. A true prinzen is a smaller
sized version of the original in all respects. They should be made
with the same attention to detail and in the same manor as the original
fullsized version. They are typically 3/4 sized or 1/2 sized of the originals.

Because my 1/2 sized Ek screwback was made as a one piece and did not
match a known original, it was deemed a mini.

[Steve Campbell]

I always assumed a Prinzen was just a smaller version of an actual Iron Cross. i.e three piece construction, iron core, silver frame etc. A mini is a small facsimile of an Iron Cross, usually one piece, designed for wear on civilian clothing. It could be in the form of a stick pin, button hole device or on a frack chain. The Prinzen was for wear on an official military uniform. Prinzens are seen in the 1870 and 1914 versions. I do not know of any 1939 versions. There are 1939 stickpins, but the civilian versions of 1939 Iron Crosses and other medlas never really developed due to the nature of the war and how it ended.

[streptile]

Here is my understanding of the terms.

A Reducktion (which is another, more proper term the informal expression "Prinzengröße") is a small-sized award designed to be worn in the same manner as a full-sized, and is subject to the same rules of wear. In other words, a Reduktion EK1 should be a pinback, and a Reduktion EK2 is often mounted on a Spange, etc. A Reduktion (like a full-sized award) may be worn on a uniform, or on civilian clothes. Examples exist of both.

A miniature is a small (generally smaller than a Reduktion) size award that is designed to be worn on civilian clothes. Miniatures may be stickpins, buttonhole devices, Miniaturkettchen devices, etc.

Generally speaking, Reduktion (or Prinzengröße) awards are made in substantially the same manner and materials as the original award pieces (i.e., 3-piece EKs), and miniatures are often of simpler construction (i.e., paint in lieu of enamel) but I've never thought of this as part of the definition. For me, it rests more on how they are meant to be worn. Thus, while I haven't seen Greg's 1/2 size one-piece EK1 SB, I would imagine it was a Reduktion (Prinzengröße).

[gregM]

mini screwback. One piece,22mm. Not the quality I would expect to
see in a Prinzen.

[gregM]

Like I said. I have to agree that this is a mini. a Prinzen should be a
faithfull representation of a known original.

[Roglebk]

Agree to most of things said so far. Problem for me is is the one piece items, some of them have better details than the 3 piece made. If Gregs screwback mini for example was 27mm, what would it be then?

Read about the 3/4 and 1/2 size as well but where do we draw the line? So far saw Prinzen/Reduktion EK's in 27, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36mm size and more sizes are probably out there.

The example below is a 'one piece' 30mm 1914 EKII, if we disregard the possibility of it being fake what do we have, a mini or a Prinzen/Reduktion? If a prinzen what size, half or 3/4?

[Roglebk]

Here's a 31mm '3 piece' 1870 EKII on a ribbon with button. The cast core makes the details very weak.

Since the 1870 EKII sometimes were worn in the buttonhole on the uniform it truly makes this one a Prinzen/Reduktion imo. But what about the '25 oaks'? Does that alter the big picture in any way?

What if this was a 1914 EKII instead. Those were not worn in the buttonhole on the uniform but could be worn with the ribbon on civil clothes. Would that cross be a Bouttonniere/button mini or a true Prinzen?

Pics belongs to Ron R.

[Roglebk]

Another 'one piece' 1914 EKII, 34,5mm on Austrian Trifold. Is this a Prinzen/Reduktion or a mini?

[Roglebk]

And then we have this, a 27mm 'one piece' 1914 EKI on a button. Too big to be a "true mini" imo and size fits Prinzen size. It could have been worn as a EKI on a uniform if a buttonhole was cut in the fabric, this is unlikely though.

[Roglebk]

Another one, enamelled 'half size' (25-28mm?) 1914 EKI pinback. Not the usual manufacture of a normal EKI. If this would be on a button or any other attachment method apart from Pin or Screwback, what would it be then?

[Steve Campbell]

I would call all the examples shown here minis. When you see a Prinzen it looks different than what has been shown here.

[gregM]

I would call all the examples shown here minis. When you see a Prinzen it looks different than what has been shown here.

I tend to agree. As much as I would like to call my screwback a prinzen,
I still think these are minis.

[Roglebk]

Similar cross as in post 12 but as an EKII found on a bar.