S&L Showroom circa 1940/1?

[DavidM]

Gordon Williamson posted an example of an S&L catalogue in part with some pages missing on the GMIC several years ago. Those pages are copied over at the GCA, or so I believe that would be the example. I know I've used it in the past as a reference, and indeed over there.

Gordon intimated the possibility of it being of the period of 1940/41 at the time he posted the pages on the GMIC some years back now - or along those lines. The catalogues on the GMIC are under the General TR decorations in a sub-forum titled: Schickle and other wartime catalogues.......it's all in there to read.

I think it would be the same issue as your own example, as it also denotes the L 16 designation for ''copies.''

KR

Marcus

Hello

Thanks for that Marcus, very useful I note that in the Otto Schickle 1940 supplementary pages, that Schickle shows a photo, (apparently Schickle used actual photos in their catalogues), of a PLM that they were offering for sale at that time.

So, regardless of whether only Wagner and Godet made them during the WW1 period, other manufacturers were advertising them by the start of WW2. If Schickle were, why not S&L? Whether Schickle etc made these, is a different matter, but they are offered in their catalogue from 1940 as can be seen below.

Regards
David

[Douglas 5]

Wow ... very interesting post indeed ... as I just read all of it so far - at once .
Don't give up Robin ! Take 2 Asprin and call me in the morning !

3 or 4 simultainious conversation lines makes reading a bit broken up but quit interesting . IMO a display setup S&L did to show what they have and 'could' produce . 39 type Iron Crosses I have worked on only and the other awards I have no idea about . Now I used the word 'could' .... for a certain reason . Is it possible that the display is showing a couple of proto types - unfinished die design strikes that did not get production approval ... thinking about quality . Possibly not enough demand or what ever ... to produce full productions dies , ...and these ending up to be the post war low quality S&L PIMs ?? Just thinking out loud here .

The - undocumented-impression indicated by the Professor and his dad ( Forman at the Juncker factory in Berlin )... Manufacturer were buisness people first . These manufacturer as mentioned earlier in this thread were a fairly close knit symbiatic group . A few maker 'partnerships' have been mentioned already . As revealed to me these manufacturers would meet occasionaly so the exspression ... 'as a family' is quit appropriate . As - the 'competition' aspect is only regards full filling larger award contracts - working side by side and not against each other . Parading with some elses awards was a no-no .... unless their was some partner agreement - I would think .
S&L did have apparently an early short lived partner ship with another company that turned quickly very bitter . From that point I would not be surprized S&L partnered up another maker or even makers ????
Closeup pictures of the awards would have been nice and would answer some questions . Any Schinkels displayed ?

Douglas

Douglas

[Flemming]

I have been reading all 13 pages in this thread, but I seem to miss something.
SOme people ask, why are there not any luftwaffe badges shown, but as I see it, we do not know what is posted on all the walls, do we?

Could it be, that one of the shelfes had a display full of luftwafe stuff?

Just a thought.

/Flemming

[Douglas 5]

That is correct , ... what is on the other side ?

Douglas

[streptile]

One thing is absolutely certain, S&L did not manufacture PlMs previous to 1945.

I think that's going a bit too far. The one thing that is absolutely certain is that we do not now have any conclusive evidence to establish that S&L made the PLM before 1945. Some may yet come to light, who knows?

What goes to far is people trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

Why don't you revisit any proof that you have that S&L did make PlMs before 1945. There is NONE. (...) Now until you have proof to the contrary why don't you stop propping up the values of S&L with nonsense like this. (...)

You do this hobby no good to suggest people should buying these mostly horribly created PlMs for the possible benefit to them one day that they are real wartime created pieces. (...)

You have no catalog they produced a PlM.

You have evidence that in 1941 they hung a Wagner in their showroom. (...)

Stop propping up values with your nonsense. (...) Nonsense and really irresponsible to the hobby to suggest otherwise.

My Lord, Brian!

I don't think I suggested that S&L made a wartime PLM. Nor did I suggest that anyone ought to buy anything at all. Everything I said in my (short and perfectly reasonable) post is 100% accurate, and had to be said by someone to correct your misleading statement that it's "absolutely certain [that] S&L did not manufacture PlMs previous to 1945" (emphasis mine).

Also -- for the record -- I do not own any PLM, S&L or otherwise, and I have no interest in the value of any PLM at all. My only interest is in accuracy and precision. To that end, I will repeat myself, verbatim:

We do not now have any conclusive evidence to establish that S&L made the PLM before 1945. Some may yet come to light, who knows?

If you believe that it is impossible that any evidence will ever come to light that S&L made a wartime PLM, I invite you to explain why.

[Brian S]

I said there is no evidence S&L made a PlM prior to 1945.

[Don D.]

Scepticism and optimism are ok, person attacks are not. Please continue the discussion with this in mind. I have split the S&L showroom stuff from the ebay auction thread. Maybe not perfect but I think I've captured the essence of both.

[jaeger7-de]

Well done.

When I am back in he office tomorrow, I will give you all some information on what is shown on the other wall.

Nothing spectecular, mostly uniform insignia if I remember right.

Greetings

jaeger7-de

[streptile]

I said there is no evidence S&L made a PlM prior to 1945.

Then we are in agreement, as this is my feeling as well.

I was under the impression that you said we now know for certain that S&L did not make a PLM prior to 1945, which is not quite accurate.

It is a small distinction, but an important one nonetheless if we are to keep our minds open.





PS: Apologies for my part in holding up the thread for a day.

[Jos L C]

I have been reading all 13 pages in this thread, but I seem to miss something.
SOme people ask, why are there not any luftwaffe badges shown, but as I see it, we do not know what is posted on all the walls, do we?

Could it be, that one of the shelfes had a display full of luftwafe stuff?

Just a thought.

/Flemming

Same here, just finished reading and had the same thought, we've seen only 2 pics ..
It would've been a scream to see the other wall hanging full of Luftwaffe .. , but I just read it's only uniform stuff..

I see they had the early luft drooptail Summer eagle though, one showed up a couple of years ago with the S&L logo on the back, 1st and last I've ever seen.

Jos.

[Brian S]

Then we are in agreement, as this is my feeling as well.

I was under the impression that you said we now know for certain that S&L did not make a PLM prior to 1945, which is not quite accurate.

It is a small distinction, but an important one nonetheless if we are to keep our minds open.





PS: Apologies for my part in holding up the thread for a day.

Absolutely Trevor, no disrespect intended, ever

Anything can show up as these photos suggest.

And if these are 'out there' who knows what clearer photos exist?

But at this moment in time, it's unproven S&L made the PlM prior to the end of WWII. It's a fact they were NOT an official maker of the award PlM prior to 1919. So IF, and that's a leap, they made one after WWI and prior to the end of WWII, it's unproven.

The photos here show to some of us that the piece hanging on the wall is a Wagner.

What will be interesting, although there aren't dozens of them around, is to look at Wagners and see if some exhibit construction techniques from the Wagner blanks, truly Wagner pieces, that S&L finished themselves. That is possible. But unproven. Mine won't help, it's marked 'W'. So was completed by Wagner.

Your input has been invaluable here Trevor, keep it up.

[Leroy]

For the Luftwaffe afficianados here, please remember that S&L was never known for its Luftwaffe pieces, and certainly not in 1940-41, so I wouldn't worry about the lack of Luftwaffe material in these particular photos. What I would like to see is a photo of every badge by S&L between 1941 and 1945! I bet we'd all be surprised..........

[Robin Lumsden]

I am sensing some cracks in the dam.....................

[Brian S]

For the Luftwaffe afficianados here, please remember that S&L was never known for its Luftwaffe pieces, and certainly not in 1940-41, so I wouldn't worry about the lack of Luftwaffe material in these particular photos. What I would like to see is a photo of every badge by S&L between 1941 and 1945! I bet we'd all be surprised..........

You mean you don't have the S&L pilot badge? Surely you have the S&L Air Gunner's Badge? Everyone's got to have the Observer's Badge

But I guess just because no one's seen one, there's no evidence they ever made one, their catalogs don't show one, doesn't mean evidence won't surface that proves they did make one...

[Leroy]

You mean you don't have the S&L pilot badge? Surely you have the S&L Air Gunner's Badge? Everyone's got to have the Observer's Badge

But I guess just because no one's seen one, there's no evidence they ever made one, their catalogs don't show one, doesn't mean evidence won't surface that proves they did make one...

Actually, Brian, I was talking specifically about their flight clasps and certain RK's (and accoutrements) and maybe a few other things........

I wouldn't mind seeing post-1941 catalogs, either, if anyone can find such a thing.