S&L Showroom circa 1940/1?

[Zepenthusiast]

Another thought: could they be separated due to being consignment items from other makers?

[Robin Lumsden]

Another thought: could they be separated due to being consignment items from other makers?

Methinks not.

[Brian S]

I can only guess they were consignment items. No evidence suggests they made the PlM wartime. These photos only show a PlM on the wall completing the entire collection of awardable objects. Did they also make the grand cross 1914? I don't think so... This is not proof of anything except a PlM hangs in the room. Which PlM we will without definitive photos never know.

[Zepenthusiast]

Jaeger7, what is the resolution of your scanner? With a magnifier, can you make out any detail of the lettering on the PlM in the original? I realize it is only 4 mm across in the image (we are mighty lucky the print is as large as it must be for the PlM to be 4 mm across) but the quality of the photo would seem to be exceptional and it would thus perhaps be possible to make out two things:

Any suggestion the u and r are connected?

Are the serifs on the base of the M flat or triangular?

[Leroy]

[QUOTE=Brian S;3812808] Did they also make the grand cross 1914? I don't think so... QUOTE]

Brian,
I certainly wouldn't dare to intrude into the PLM field (which is your territory, not mine), but as regards the Grand Cross I believe it is a 1939 version, not the 1914 version. There were certainly several companies which made copies of this (for retail sale before the "ban" in 1941, and for display, exhibition, etc. thereafter), other than Juncker, and these have never really all been positively ID'd. Not saying for sure, at all, that S&L made this particular piece, but there is no reason it could not have (especially as it advertised itself as "the Home of the Iron Cross").
Regards,
Leroy

[Brian S]

Leroy, of course, it's hanging in front of Goring's nose, it is of course the 1939 GC not 1914.

[Leroy]

Here's the one I keep going back to. Please accept my apologies for my horrible photo-enhancement skills (or lack thereof!), but this Spanish Cross has a very three-dimensional center, which suggests to me that it MIGHT be a wearing copy of the Cross with Brilliants.

[Brian S]

I have one and you should know it - I show the picture of the RK in my book. The date must be between March 1, 1941 (LDO number is announced in the catalog) and 29.Sept. 1941 when the Swords were introduced (which are not in the catalog - the oaks are ... RM 13.80 cased)

Attached the page for the WW1 medals . Of course they also had the EK1 and II and the WBs. No PLM.

Dietrich

PS: Danke an Jaeger fuer das tolle Photo!

Don't lose sight of Dietrich's huge contribution here! As late as Sep. 1941, no PlM in their catalog.

I firmly believe that if you the vet walked into a showroom and you needed an award for replacement, you'd expect S&L to provide you with WHATEVER you needed. It seems entirely unreasonable to assume they'd boot you out the door in the direction of Godet or Wagner showrooms for your PlM.

And SERIOUSLY, in 1942 onwards, how many PlMs do you REALLY think they would have needed... The collector community caused S&L to mint them after WWII.


LEROY, is that photo from your dermatologist? You need to get that removed!


And if it's not too late... I'd also like to add a....


PS: Danke an Jaeger fuer das tolle Photo!

[Leroy]

I would just like to refine the date, if possible, of the last S&L catalog that we know of. I personally don't think it is as late as September, 1941. A very minor issue, really, involving at most only a few months, but just one to keep "filed away" in our memory bank (and which has nothing whatsoever to do one way or the other with Dietrich's contribution to this thread).

Certainly, whenever it was published, there was no PLM in the catalog.

Recently, on GCA, what is said to be the 1940 catalog of S&L (which shows the RK and the Oakleaves) was published, with some pages missing. I personally do not have an original of this catalog,and so can't check it, but instead only have an original of their 1939 "Anniversary" catalog (which also does NOT show a PLM).

What I found interesting about the partial version published on GCA was that the entirety of the 2nd page was an advertisement for Dr. Doehle's book on German awards (which you could buy for RM 6.80). The cover of the book, of course, matches the small "handout" pamplets lying on the counter in the S&L photos shown here. This suggests to me that these photos coincide with the first publication date of Dr. Doehle's book, which I believe was originally 1940. I base this belief on the fact that the "Forward" to the "1st edition" was written in 1939 (just as the "Forward" to the 1943 edition, which was referred to as the "4th edition", was written in December, 1942). Not very scientific, but it is one hell of a coincidence otherwise. So we have a 1940, a 1941, a 1942, and a 1943 edition. There is also, I know, a 1944 edition (which has been re-printed), which would be the "5th" edition. The "1940" catalog shown on GCA (which has the exact same cover as the catalog shown in Dietrich's book as the "1941" catalog), in the advertisement for the Doehle book, makes no mention whatsoever that it is a "2nd" edition, which I think it would have if that had been the case.

Is the last catalog from S&L a 1940 or a 1941 catalog? I don't know, but I think we should try to narrow it down a bit.

In any case, because of the combination of the Doehle advertisement in the "1940" catalog, without any mention that it is a "new" (or 2nd) edition, AND the presence of apparent brochures for the Doehle book on the counters in these photos, I think these photos date from 1940.

[J C Gray]

What I found interesting about the partial version published on GCA was that the entirety of the 2nd page was an advertisement for Dr. Doehle's book on German awards (which you could buy for RM 6.80). The cover of the book, of course, matches the small "handout" pamplets lying on the counter in the S&L photos shown here. This suggests to me that these photos coincide with the first publication date of Dr. Doehle's book, which I believe was originally 1940. I base this belief on the fact that the "Forward" to the "1st edition" was written in 1939 (just as the "Forward" to the 1943 edition, which was referred to as the "4th edition", was written in December, 1942). Not very scientific, but it is one hell of a coincidence otherwise. So we have a 1940, a 1941, a 1942, and a 1943 edition. There is also, I know, a 1944 edition (which has been re-printed), which would be the "5th" edition. The "1940" catalog shown on GCA (which has the exact same cover as the catalog shown in Dietrich's book as the "1941" catalog), in the advertisement for the Doehle book, makes no mention whatsoever that it is a "2nd" edition, which I think it would have if that had been the case.

Just to clarify a few points on the Heinrich Doehle publications (which may or may not help in the study of these photographs) the 1st. edition of the Doehle book was in fact published in 1939 with the 2nd. being published in 1940 and the 3rd. in 1941 (there was no 1942 edition). The 4th. edition was then published in full colour in 1943 and ,to my knowledge, the 5th. edition was not actually published until recently, by 'Reddick Enterprises'. Apart from the date on the back, all of the first three editions had the same dust jacket ie. a photograph of the Order for Art & Science in monochrome such as is seen in the "handouts" in the picture in question and the 1941 edition was basically the same book as the 1940 edition with the addition of an 8 page pullout supplement to show the newer war badges & German Cross etc.
Interestingly, in these first three editions, all the pictured awards are actual photographs with the exception of the Customs award and the NSDAP Service Awards, which are line drawings, which suggests that Doehle did not have access to these particular awards. I personally cannot see the Customs Cross in the photographed display (although I think that I can just make out the NSDAP Awards in amongst the Flower Wars medals).
I would also like to add (just in case it is may be of some relevance to this matter) that the 1939 EKI pictured in the Doehle books is the 'Schinkel' version.

[Leroy]

That is a very good and useful clarification.

As the "1940" catalog seems to make no reference to the book being a "second edition", and the book was not mentioned at all in the 1939 "Anniversary" S&L catalog (even though the book was first published apparently in 1939) that suggests that the "1940" catalog (and perhaps the brochures on the counter in the photo) promoted the "first edition". Because none of these photos seem to show any award that is 1941 or later (as Robin already indicated), this would seem to indicate that the 1939 catalog came out before the book was published and, in turn, the "1940" catalog, with the advertisement, came out fairly early in 1940.

[CSForrester]

There are publications about this exhibition of orders and decorations in "Uniformen-Markt". As i remember it is not in Luedenscheid, the room we see is either in the LDO-Building or an exhibition in Berlin in neighbourhood of the Präsidialkanzlei.
If someone posseses the CD with the "Uniformen-Markt" he should check volumes 1939-1941.

Regards
Markus

[Leroy]

Markus,
That makes great sense (and also happens to fit in with my earlier Post #65 that these photos reminded me of a trade show exhibit). That would explain, perhaps, the sliding doors and the loop brackets on those doors for either locks or one of those "rope off" barriers (and might also explain the number "516" painted on the "window" and the mention of "Ludenscheid" on the wall).
Would S&L have shown material it did not make itself at a trade show?
Regards,
Leroy


P.S. Here's a crazy (probably) thought: Does the presence of a CLTB and a PLM (even if not with the "pie" suspension) suggest any possible relationship between S&L and Otto Schickle? Did Schickle actually manufacture either of these pieces, or is it possible that S&L made them just for Schickle? Pure speculation, of course.

[Dietrich Maerz]

My catalog has the same page in front ...

[Leroy]

Thanks, Dietrich!

Any thoughts whether the "1940" catalog shown on GCA is actually one and the same as your "1941"? I know yours makes mention of the "L 16" designation, but I can't tell (because of the missing pages) if the one on GCA does. Was this a confirmation of something which may actually have have occured in 1940?