Imperial Service Medals

[regular122]

Fascinating Wild Card and the Bavarian award is astounding.

Thinking out loud for anybody who cares to comment:
So I guess that the longer the service, that crosses were the norm popping up at XXV? The Schnalles seemed to be popular with the various states and I guess Landwehr?

Would it be fair to say that the family of service medals that we have come to know then in the IX, XII, XV, & XXV came about during the First World War?

Since the crosses seemed to be appearing in the 1820s, do you think that the Schnalles turned into round medals, while the XXV plus remained crosses? What is the highest number of years anyone has seen on a Schnalle? Excluding the fire service, has anyone seen anything above XX?

Steve

[saschaw]

Steve, that are questions that are well answered in Nimmerguts "OEK". 17 times issued for now about 30 years. It lists any German award from 1800 to 1945 with rougly market prices.

In most cases, the crosses ("Kreuze") went to officers while the clasps ("Schnallen") went to EMs and NCOs.

In Baden e.g., there was a clasp for XXV years of EM/NCO service, given from 1831-1868. Then they were changed to XXI years. A Baden officer would not get any long service award until his 25 cross, the same in most other states. Bavarian officers got their cross at 24 years, but 25 is a rule of thumb. In many states (Baden, Bavaria) there were as well 40 year crosses. It's a very wide field, but I think if you use the forum search you might find some good stuff on it.

[Wild Card]

Hello Regular122,

Thank you for the compliment. Yes, I agree that Bavarian piece is quite impressive and I must admit that I am very fortunate to have it in my collection.

To start with your last question - With regard to the schnalles, in post #23, I noted that “... there were also awards for eighteen and thirty years of service”. As to having seen one, Eric Ludvigsen had a thirty year schnalle which was in the same form as the twenty year schnalle in post #23.

With regard to crosses versus medals, there were several states that awarded crosses only. Among others, Nassau had a series of very attractive crosses for twenty-five, twenty-two, sixteen and ten years of service during the period of 1834-1866; Frankfurt had a series of similar looking crosses for twenty-five, fifteen and ten years from 1840-1866; and Hessen-Kassel had a series of crosses for twenty, fifteen and ten years from 1835-1849, after which they went over to schnalles for twenty-one, fifteen and nine years!!

Yes, there does seem to have been a general trend to keep the established twenty-five year officer’s crosses in place. One of the more interesting things along that line is that from 1841-1872, Mecklenburg-Schwerin appears to have had a series of officer’s long service crosses that started at twenty-five years and went up to sixty-five years in five year increments.

As to your question “Would it be fair to say that the family of service medals that we have come to know then in the IX, XII, XV, & XXV came about during the First World War?”, I would say certainly for Prussia (actually, it was 1913, before the war); but this was not an iron clad rule throughout the Empire. There were numerous exceptions. Schaumburg-Lippe retained it’s twenty-one, fifteen and nine year schnalles from 1850, Bavaria had nothing for twenty-two years, nor did Baden and so on.

So, as you can see there was no real order to the system. I think that, for the most part, this is explained by the more autonomous position of these various states, especially during the 1800’s. Because of it’s complexity, I would say that in understanding this subject, it is best to approach each state separately rather than going too far in categorizing; not to say that there are not some helpful generalizations.

This is an area of Imperial German decoration collecting that offers many opportunities - familiarization with virtually every state, a selection of pieces from among the very cheapest to pieces which sell for over $1,000, from the very common to the rarest of the rare, from basic to amazingly attractive.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[regular122]

Thanks to both Saschaw and Wild Card. I do need to get a Nimmergut I guess.

Sixty-five years service? WOW! That would be something to earn. I wonder how many of those Meck badges were awarded?

Thanks again, Steve

[saschaw]

I do need to get a Nimmergut I guess.

Yes, for being actually "just" a price guide this book is realy usefull. It gives no numbers, but dates, models...

Sixty-five years service? WOW! That would be something to earn. I wonder how many of those Meck badges were awarded?

I don't have the "big Nimmergut" aka "opus magnum" so cannot say something for sure but guess that were not more than about three...

[McCulloh]

as an aside

There's a nice little book on Schnallen by Pieter Ohm-Hieronymussen in Danish though. "Landevaerns Tjenesthaederstegn I De Tyske Forbundsstater: 1842-1918".
It's well worth having and if yoy can read german you can easily handle Danish.+

After the wall came down in 1989, Ohm-H. went back to Germany (the family had fled to Denmark in 1944) and got a look through the old state archives (the family had been well known jewelers).
There were still complete lists of shnallen awards:numbers, names, dates.
Now days this stuff is locked up for "privacy reasons' (e.g. emabarassment as to what went on in the GDR etc.).

[gregM]

GREAT thread--guys.

This is well out of my collecting field but still very very interesting.
I always like learning new things seeing other peoples collections.

WC, you have obveiously done your homework and posted some
great items. Please keep them coming.

[Wild Card]

SASCHAW,

I agree that the OEK is absolutely invaluable to all Imperial ODM collectors to the degree that it should be the first purchase, especially for beginning collectors. However, despite the author’s best efforts, with regard to it’s prices/valuations, I can endorse it only as a general reference; and I think that these figures are erroneously taken too seriously too often. Ultimately, the market, which is ever changing, determines the price; and sometimes there other factors, mainly related to rarity, that are not, and often can not be, factored into the published price.

I find the “magnum opus” to be extremely helpful. It is not without errors and is rather expensive; but I feel that, for my work and interests, it has been well worth the money. Actually, it comes in four volumes plus an additional issue (Nachtrag) which offers corrections and additional information. Because it is organized by state, if one’s interest is confined to one or two states, this might be a bit much; but as interests cover a wider range of states - medal bars, war merit crosses, long service decorations - it’s purpose comes more into play.

Remember that for specific information on medals and decorations, excluding orders, Hessenthal/Schreiber is still the best; but, lacking pictures (yes, I know the plates in the back...) is much harder to work with for searches.

gregM,

Thank you. I have made arrangements to have a couple of the decorations, which are mentioned above, brought home (they reside elsewhere) for pictures.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[saschaw]

Wild Card, I'm agreeing with your posting at least for 100%. I'm offered a "opus magnum" at the moment, think I'll buy that one...

[Wild Card]

Wild Card, I'm agreeing with your posting at least for 100%. I'm offered a "opus magnum" at the moment, think I'll buy that one...

SASCHAW,

Being a bit familiar, from your posts, with your collection and interests, I think that you will find it to be interesting and helpful.

Viel Glueck

[Wild Card]

As promised, some friends have returned home from the safer places where
they normally reside to have their pictures taken.

Referring back to post #33, first we have a sixteen year long service cross
from Nassau. The crosses in this series all looked the same except for the
officer’s twenty-five year cross which is silver-gilt and the Roman numerals
denoting the number of years. Interestingly, though, they have a different
ribbon system. As you can see below, while the twenty- five year cross for
officers and the twenty-five year cross for nco’s and other ranks are solid
blue and the ten year cross for nco’s and other ranks has yellow side stripes,
the sixteen year cross has the single center stripe.

[Wild Card]

Next is a fifteen year cross for nco’s, other ranks and musicians (?)
from Frankfurt. Again, this series all look the same except for the
Roman numerals denoting the number of years; and, in this case
twenty-five year cross for officers is silver-gilt while the one for nco’s,
other ranks and musicians along with the fifteen year cross are silver
and the ten year crosses are dark bronze. The ribbon for all crosses is
the same.

[Wild Card]

Last is a twenty year service cross from Hessen-Kassel. The awards of
this series for ten and fifteen years, except for the number on the
upper arm which designates the number of years, are identical,
including the ribbon.

[regular122]

Stunning examples Wild Card. Thanks for sharing these with us and taking the time to post them. What dates would each of these be? Steve

[Wild Card]

Hello regular122,

Thank you, I am glad that you enjoyed them.

These were posted in a followup to post #33, from which I quote - “With regard to crosses versus medals, there were several states that awarded crosses only. Among others, Nassau had a series of very attractive crosses for twenty-five, twenty-two, sixteen and ten years of service during the period of 1834-1866; Frankfurt had a series of similar looking crosses for twenty-five, fifteen and ten years from 1840-1866; and Hessen-Kassel had a series of crosses for twenty, fifteen and ten years from 1835-1849, after which they went over to schnalles for twenty-one, fifteen and nine years!! “.

So post #41 is Nassau, 1834-1866, post #42 is Frankfurt, 1840-1866 and post #43 is Hessen-Kassel 1835-1849.

Again, thank you and best wishes,

Wild Card