Double SB - a hero copy?

[R. Schmitt]

http://cgi.ebay.de/WK-1-Eisernes-Kre...ihZ015QQcatego

Guys - browsing ebay today, I found this EK example offered by our beloved hero - first kind I've seen, pretty good detail,l no real wear, no patina... considering the source I suspect this to be a fake, it would surprise me if that is not the case....
Best Regards
Rainer

[gregM]

That is a good looking cross BUT like you, I am pretty suspicious about
It. It is TOO clean, no wear or patina as you mentioned. The nuts
are really large compared to ones of that style I have seen. ALSO--
most screwback crosses use a backing plate. With a cross that mint
looking, don't you find it unusual that the backplate is missing?

Having never seen this particular set-up before, I would probably
stay away from it.

[R. Schmitt]

Thanks for your response, Greg - It IS a nice looking cross, but I haven't seen one with the same setup, either,just the ones with the backing plate and the small brass nuts, I haven't seen it all though...
No reference piece with real wear and patina makes thiis piece a definite NoNo for me, and I strongly suspect that this is one of the first pieces of a new series of fakes.
By all means, though, if anyone has an example like it, with or without the backing plate, please post it. Are there any known Hero EKs 1914? If so, a comparison of the details might be helpful as well.
Best Regards

[Ammersee]

Look at the shadow lines around the "W"... and the crown...and date. Old hand cut cores don't have these shadow lines. CNC machining. If the operator knew what he was doing, there wouldn't have been a shadow line from the end mill. I'm a retired machinist, and there are now some truly amazing machines out there capable of this. Ammersee

[Don D.]

Having nearly ruined TR collecting he is now branching out to Imperial....

[R. Schmitt]

...Imperial Pilot badges will be next if not already present, I guess, anything with a market price above 300 US$ maximizing profits

I do see the shadows, Ammersee, thanks for pointing that out - However - those shadows will eventually disappear, too, no doubt about that. Interesting fact about the CNC machines, I can imagine the "W" being cut out like that, but how would that look like for the crown? Not questioning your statement, just interested in the procedure how it's actually done (the complicated details on the crown in particular).
I've seen similar Screw discs on the fake condor Wound badge SBs by the way, those are pretty wel made also, don't know if the AH produced these, though...
Best
Rainer

[Ammersee]

To cut the crown would take at least a 5-axis machine, miniature size of course. I will go to You-Tube and see if I can find a machine for you in action. I am far from an expert on CNC machines. I retired just as some of the CNC multi-axis, multi-head Japanese lathes and milling machines came out. We had several 3-head, 5-axis Mori-Seiki's at the company I worked for. These machines can cut anything that a program can be written for. Some CAD/CAM (computer assisted design, computer assisted machining) "artist" wrote a program to cut the 1914 EK core details and perhaps never even realized what it was and that it would be used to make fakes. Ammersee

[R. Schmitt]

Oh boy, sounds like we're in deep trouble - a 5 axis Micro Milling machine sure involves some serious investments and will require numerous sales of its "products" to pay off Thanks for the info so far, Ammersee, hope you can find a machine in action, that would indeed be very interesting to see.
In eany case, I'm glad I spotted this one before eventually getting burned by one of its brothers in the future... I'm certain they're not getting worth as the production process moves on to higher spheres...
KR
Rainer

[Ammersee]

Luckily, I didn't find any EK's being made on You-Tube. I did find a video that will give you an idea of how it's done.
This machine is engraving a small design on a titanium ring. Unfortunately, it does not show the finished design, but I think this machine would be capable of cutting the details on iron cores to EK specs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9MNm...eature=related
These CNC mills can easily run $150,000, then you have to buy tooling and fixtures, plus the cost of the CAD/CAM work. I'd bet a machinist and maybe an accomplice or two somewhere are using a company machine to make the cores, rather than a group of fakers buying a CNC. Then again, with big money at stake, who knows? Ammersee

[gregM]

I noticed the shadow line when I first looked at the cross. However I
had no clue what made them. Thanks for the great info about the
CNC. Now we have something else to help us spot the fakes(untill they
take the time to clean them up)

BTW--I like the new Avatar

[Ammersee]

Thanks Greg. If you need any pics reduced to avitar size, let me know. It only takes a minute to reduce one. In fact, you or anyone else are welcome to use this one. I've made several of them and switch often. Ammersee