Pour le Mérite of Austrian manufacture

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

I would like to know if there is any image available of the "Blaue Max" variation, produced in Austria (Rothe & Neffe), during WW1.

Thank you in advance,

E.L.

[regular122]

Elmar,

Rothe PlMs are the subject of much discussion. Here is a fine example from an online auction. Rothe versions have been reproduced heavily and are generally regarded as post-war copies. No evidence has come to light that they produced awarded pieces or wartime examples. I believe they were available in the TR period. Unlike S&Ls and other non-awarded makers, I have seen no photographic evidence of a PlM holder wearing one of this type.

The main characteristic is the 'fish-bone' tail on the eagles. The other common traits are the wide, flat arm rays with 'ladder' chased lettering. Steve

[Elmar Lang]

Hello Steve,

thank you very much for your detailed reply.

I'm a collector of Imperial Austrian Orders & Decorations, so the "Rothe" name comes quite often.

I remember in the '70s that messrs. Rothe had some pieces of the PLM on display in their jeweller's shop in Vienna. After what I was said from Mrs. Rothe, one was a wartime piece, while the few others were of later manufacture. Since Prussia wasn't one of my intetrests, I didn't ask more. Pity that Rothe doesn't exist anymore...

I see on the picture, that the chiselled finish of the "Pour le Mérite" devise is typically Austrian, as we can see -for instance- on the Ist Class breast stars of the Iron Crown Order. Also the eagles, although one-headed, are made with many similarities to those (here double-headed) applied to the crosses of the Maltese Order awarded by the Priorate of Austria-Bohemia.

Rothe & Neffe were jewellers and manufacturers of orders and decorations of the highest quality since the 1st half of XIX Century. I am quite sure that Rothe, same as for other foreign orders, made also the PLM during wartime, but for sure also after 1918, and at least until the '70s.

Best wishes,

Enzo (Elmar Lang)

[cris403]

Hi Guys, this is my first post on this forum and am very much finding my feet with regard to PLM's. Have got a "Jewellers" copy of a PLM that is marked very poorly as a Godet, but the style (from looking at the Rothe photo) is identical to the Rothe, hopefully a picture is attached here and comments welcome.http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/cris40...08254103407874.

[regular122]

Cris,

Welcome to the forum. I will try to post these pics for you and then discuss what I think, especially given the large amount of interest lately in Rothe pieces on the forum. Steve

[regular122]

As promised, here is a composite of Cris' Rothe style PlM.

It is certainly of the Rothe style. The crown, lettering and chasing are consistent with this type.

The enamel coloring is good, and is a bit better than many of these that surface.

The quality of the enamel causes me a bit of concern. Actual PlMs and even those made by wartime makers in the post 1918 period have a consistency to enamel work that I see a bit lacking here. The uneven surface area around the crown, the slight rippling at the center of the cross are examples.

I also do not like the pock marks on the reverse. If made by an actual maker, this would not be encountered in my opinion.

The pie-wedge mark casuses me the greatest concern. The mark JGUS is inconsistent with a Rothe cross. I have yet to see any proof that Godet made such styles of cross. If the eagles (which are quite detailed) were applied to a Godet piece, then the whole lettering and crown structure would be different.

The ribbon, though not shown here, has two things that cause me concern. First, the EKII mini ribbon ties are the most common fake set up encountered. I always suspect them when I see them. While possible, they appear by the score on fakes of many types. Second, the spattering uneven pattern of what appears to be synthetic thread vice a silver thread in neat four to seven stitch rows, makes me balk at this ribbon. Fake ribbon, better cross? Maybe but I doubt it for reasons stated above.

Compare this one to the one I posted above. You can see a lot of quality difference and also note that the cross center on the earlier posted piece is much more narrow than on this piece.

Taken as a whole, I think this is a 1960s or later Rothe style fake. But it is just my opinion and could certainly be wrong. I defer to other opinions as well and am certainly open to discussion. As such it is still quite a handsome piece. Steve

[regular122]

A detail showing the enamel rippling and the ribbon spatter. Steve

[cris403]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your input on this, when I originally bought the piece I was told that the ribbon was not original, but the PLM was a 1920-1930's Jewellers piece...as you mentioned the quality of the eagles is superb, and does make the piece very attractive...

Have often thought the enamel is perhaps not as good as it should be, but at the time of purchase (2001) was a little unsure in these matters & had the medal examined by Ken at Derrittmeister.com prior to purchase, his opinion matched that of the sellers (ie 1920-30's jewellers piece & non-original ribbon)...Ken also seemed to think this was a Godet piece (perhaps just looking at the makers mark alone).

Thanks again for your input.
Cris

[regular122]

Wish I had better news on it Cris, but I think it to be a bit later than the World Wars period. Like I said, it is just my opinion.

Jack and Ken at Der Rittmeister mean well and there are some superb bargains to be found there if one knows what he is looking for. But when it comes to their PlMs, I don't think I have ever seen a piece I was really comfortable with. Most seem to have been Rothe style and nearly all of them fail certain tests. And I have yet to substantiate a wartime Rothe example, although it is likely one was made considering the Emperors, Dukes and Generals awarded PlMs in Austria. The one at the top of this thread might be one of those but is not traced.

If this piece you posted were unmarked, it would have a bit more merit as a possible jeweler's piece, were it not for the enamel rippling. But with the Godet mark, it just blows the story of a true Godet--making it something else trying to be a Godet, and therefore not a legit piece.

If you go to the PlM series pinned at the top of this Imperial section, you will see a Godet thread that shows what Godets, issue or interwar, should look like.

Thanks for posting this and, again, welcome to the forum. Steve

[cris403]

Hi Steve,

Thanks again for your opinion, I think that you are probably right about my piece, I couldn't work out why this piece was marked as a Godet and yet appears much more like a Rothe...next time I buy something like this will make sure I do my own research and reach my own conclusions...

Regards
Cris

[Elmar Lang]

Hello,

I've noticed some differences between the piece posted from Steve and the piece belonging to Cris, especially at the crown's base, more "elaborate" in the first one and more "simplified" in the second piece; also the eagles, better finished in the first piece and with less cared details (especially at the tails' ends) in the second one.

Godet marks on Cris' piece are, in my opinion a later "addition" done thinking to add importance to the decoration.

A Rothe-made piece belonged to General Lequis, from the well-known Spada Collection, is now on display at the National Museum of the Legion of Honour in Paris, France ("Honneur et Gloire - les Trésors de la Collection Spada"): it is with oak leaves and the suspension has been curiously modified into a bow.

Best wishes,

Elmar Lang

[cris403]

Hi Elmar,

I noticed those subtle quality differences as well, and yet if you look at the detail on the eagles, there are chest feathers on my piece and on the first piece thay are not as defined - same with the wing feathers.

I think the end tail feathers (on my piece) were left to form the normal square that you tend to see on the other makers PLM's (albeit an unusual looking square).

Suspect you are correct in the Godet mark being some sort of after thought - maybe to make the piece more desirable/expensive when selling, maybe even added by a previous owner/dealer (but this is just a guess on my part).

Regards
Cris

[regular122]

Hello,

I've noticed some differences between the piece posted from Steve and the piece belonging to Cris, especially at the crown's base, more "elaborate" in the first one and more "simplified" in the second piece; also the eagles, better finished in the first piece and with less cared details (especially at the tails' ends) in the second one.

Godet marks on Cris' piece are, in my opinion a later "addition" done thinking to add importance to the decoration.

A Rothe-made piece belonged to General Lequis, from the well-known Spada Collection, is now on display at the National Museum of the Legion of Honour in Paris, France ("Honneur et Gloire - les Trésors de la Collection Spada"): it is with oak leaves and the suspension has been curiously modified into a bow.

Best wishes,

Elmar Lang

Enzo,

Is it possible to get a picture of the Lequis PlM? Steve