opinion of Iron Cross 1st Class

[NormWimpy]

Hello, I'm hoping to get a few opinions on this 1914 Iron Cross first class I recently aquired. It's the first one for me and I'm just not certain.

It's 3 piece construction, with a magnetic core. Measures 41mm x 41mm, with a makers mark on the pin, I think it's a 41 but I'm not sure.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated and will help me to learn little more. Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge.

Norm

[NormWimpy]

The Reverse

Here is the reverse of the cross.

[NormWimpy]

another view of Reverse

And the reverse with the pin open.

[Don D.]

Looks like a 1957 era produced cross.

[gregM]

I think Don might be right. The pin and catch does not look like
any period WW1 setup that I have seen before.

[NormWimpy]

Well, thanks again for the help.

[MrSmith]

Yes you can find this pin and reverse setup on pieces from the 1960's-1970's

[Steve Campbell]

So how does this work now? Is this cross considered a fake? A 57 version? When you think about it, is it any different than a post WW1 replacement piece from the 20's or 30's in concept. The war was over then, yet these crosses are considered legitimate. Why is 1945 used as the cut off point for WW1 crosses? The front is no different, just the harware. Would it be the maker?

[regular122]

Steve,

I guess it is who you ask and what the piece is. For example, we know that a Pour le Merite made by S&L after the 1957 pattern was awarded with 50 year crown in the late 1960s. It was a 50 year crown on a government issued '57 piece to a PlM holder. Is it real? Yes. Is it government issued? Yes. Is it a WWI piece? Well, er...yes!

IMO, the problem comes when legitimate '57 pieces fall victim to all fakes after 1945. Too many folks out there pushing every fake as a 'jeweler's copy.' Unlikely really.

But there are some legit 'post war issue' pieces such as what appears to be a good '57 piece you show here.' Governments award medals to old timers just as much as when they were young. i oversaw the awarding of legitmate medals to World War I vets that never received them. Now they were certainly not the 1918 issue pieces but they were the newer 1980s versions. Still legit, still belong to the vet.

In terms of value, the '57 WWI crosses would retain more only with provenance in my view. That is because for between $150-$200, you can get almost any version of EK I from World War I. But your cross looks a lot better than the Polish or Latvian outright fakes. At least the '57 piece has some legitimacy. My two cents, Steve

[Steve Campbell]

Thanks for the reply, although I never posted the cross, I was just replying to the thread and asking questions. What do you think of the cross in this link. It's an 1870 1st Class EK said to be a museum copy from the 30's. I think it looks nice and would'nt mind having it but aren't we into the same situation here. Still looks better than a 57 in my opinion.

http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Imper...s/G006056.html

[Mike Kenny]

What do you think of the cross in this link. It's an 1870 1st Class EK said to be a museum copy from the 30's.

Hi Steve,

Personally I would not touch that "1870" example. The pin and beading strike me as more consistent with current Eastern European fakes that anything from the 1930s - especially that wierd pin. Fresh rust like that core exhibits is not usually a good sign either.

Re fakes and a 1945 cut-off, that only really applies to TR awards as the TR government ceased to exist after mid 1945. There is a certainly a grey area when it comes to Imperial "57ers" though. Steve's comment above re provenance is valid, but I've seen very few 57er 1914EK1s with any sort of provenance. The one above has a hinge/pin/catch consistent with TR 57er re-issued examples, so it is probably OK as a 57er replacement piece.

You could argue that there is no such thing as an Imperial EK fake but I'd argue that anything made fairly recently and meant to deceive IS a fake. The poor quality examples that S&L turns out these days (or at least did until recently) I'd put into the collectors market category, if only because they are made by one of the original German 57er producers.

Regards
Mike

[regular122]

Sorry Steve. You're right. It's Norm's thread!

The situation would be the same if issued. Given that an 18 year old soldier would be 78 years old in 1930, that would not be abnormal at all to have lots of living Franco-Prussian vets around.

As to the cross itself, I defer to the 1870 guys out there on this one. It is plausible and economical. The pin looks like a Meybauer type to me. The metals are hard to discern from the pics but don't appear too pretty or real silver. Could be bad pics. I am always a bit cautious on crosses that try too hard on the rust as well. Most older pieces survive pretty well unless exposed to the elements or battlefield dug. They spent most of their lives in cigar or jewelry boxes.

Maybe Don, Greg, Dave, Wild Card or Marc can comment among others. Steve

[Steve Campbell]

Thanks guys. I've always wondered what people thought about this area. I think that original manufactures should at the very least be involved. Is S&L still around? I for one am not really interested in 57 pieces. I personally cut off after 45.

[Tiger 1]

The complete history of the Iron Cross series involves the 1813, 1870, 1914, 1939 and the 1957 so called 'reissues'. If you make the cut at 1945 you eliminate a legitimate part of EK history.

Tony

[Steve Campbell]

That is true about the 57's. They just don't interest me for collecting that much. I may get one all the same to have a representative piece down the road, but they are not really something that I'm all that interested in.