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**GHP** · 11-14-2006, 12:29 AM

Originally posted by paddywhack View Post

....but what would the ribbion have been on it? standard black?? cheers guys!!

The ribbon is black. This Badge of the Order is either to an Officer Brother or Commander Brother (or Sister). There are five grades after Esquire: Serving Brother, Officer Brother, Commander Brother or Chaplain (if ordained), and Knight of Grace / Knight of Justice, and Baliff Grand Cross. (Chaplain is the same grade as Commander, and Esquire is not considered a Grade).

The only difference between Knight of Grace and Knight of Justice is that the Knight of Justice has a recorded Coat of Arms registered with the College of Arms in England, Court of the Lord Lyon in Scotland, or on the continent if the family originates there.

Unfortunately members with Coatarmour granted by the Chief Herald of Ireland are at this time ineligible to be recognized due to some legalistic problems ongoing in Ireland (discussions in the Dail whether the office is "legal" or not). Garter King of Arms -- the Genealogist of the Order -- finds Irish Arms to be of questionable validity because of their current status (or lack thereof) in Ireland. As soon as the Chief Herald of Ireland is "legitimated" I am sure that Garter will recognize the validity of Irish Arms.

Recently Priory Chapter has elected to do away with the gender designators, so that new entrants will become Members (as in the Order of the British Empire) instead of Serving Brothers/Sisters; their postnominals will be MStJ instead of SB.St.J. Commanders will drop the gender designator

Regards,
Guy Power
(Member of the Most Venerable Order of St. John ... and inheritor of Irish Arms!)

**paddywhack** · 11-14-2006, 04:37 PM

very good info there!! what are is it normaly awarded for? is it awarded saving lives ect??pity about ireland but then that life i guess!!!

**ottomaton** · 11-14-2006, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by paddywhack View Post

very good info there!! what are is it normaly awarded for? is it awarded saving lives ect??pity about ireland but then that life i guess!!!

The order of St. John and the Knights of Malta and the like are chivalric organization. You are bestowed membership on the basis of religious compatablility, ‘your character’ and usually (though I don’t think it is implicitly stated) your social class. You are awarded membership not for what you do but for who you are.

**paddywhack** · 11-14-2006, 05:33 PM

aaahhhhhh so its we're royaltly(?) lets give each other medals type of thing!!!!!

thanks for the update!!

**GHP** · 11-15-2006, 11:18 PM

Originally posted by ottomaton View Post

...You are awarded membership not for what you do but for who you are.

I'd like to address this inaccurate statement with regard to the Most Venerable Order of St. John (VOSJ). The VOSJ is a serving chivalric Order whose sovereign head is HM Queen Elizabeth II. Admittance has nothing to do with who one is, but for what you do; there are no nobiliary requirements for membership. The VOSJ is a service Order providing first aid training, ambulance service, hospice service, mountain rescue (in Scotland), and runs the St. John Eye Hospital in Jerusalem. Yes, members of the nobility are in its upper leadership positions, but not all leaders are noble; many are not.

The VOSJ is ecumenical whereas the Germanic Johanniterorden is strictly Protestant and the "Mother" Order -- the Sovereign Military Order of Malta (SMOM ) -- is strictly Catholic. Whereas both the Johanniterorden and the SMOM have stringent nobiliary requirements, non-nobles can be admitted into the SMOM as Knights of Madrigal Grace; most SMOM American members are in this category.

Kind regards,
--Guy

**GHP** · 11-15-2006, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by GHP View Post

.....Unfortunately members with Coatarmour granted by the Chief Herald of Ireland are at this time ineligible to be recognized due to some legalistic problems ongoing in Ireland (discussions in the Dail whether the office is "legal" or not). Garter King of Arms -- the Genealogist of the Order -- finds Irish Arms to be of questionable validity because of their current status (or lack thereof) in Ireland.......

Regards,
Guy Power
(Member of the Most Venerable Order of St. John ... and inheritor of Irish Arms!)

I hope the irony of my "questionable" heraldic status was appreciated in the humorous vein I intended, and not as me trying to be snooty. That would be so infra dig!

--Guy

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