Pour le Merite 9mm Mini

[Les]

Steven,

Oh...by the way, could you learn to keep some of the implied snide comments out of your posts?

Despite some of the mistakes made in "Iron Time" (for example one bullet marked Ritterkreuz) that later turned out to be less than what it was reputed to be in your book, that hasn't taught you humility. When "called" on it, your response was to claim the museum staff insisted it was real and you included it because of that. Your research should have taught you how to determine was what real and what wasn't....apparently not.

One thing an honest researcher/historians does is admit personal mistakes, and not pass the blame onto someone else. Simply say it was a mistake, and leave it at that.

Steve, this post will probably get me banned from WFA, and the post delted, but so be it.

Prussian Blue has it's share of mistakes, and more than one or two of your opinions are wrong. wrong.

Steve, when you're wrong learn to admit it and move on. Don't get "prissy" by taking things personally. It shows that you're not as intellectually honest as you could and should be.

For the rest of you on this Forum, so long, good bye. If a former Forum moderator who should know how to represent an example of proper decorum can't refrain from a snide tone that can lead to the type of exchanges that lead to forums going downhill....then I'm outta here.

Les

[regular122]

Les, Stephen, Brian,

Thanks for the comments and opinions. I am sorry to see the friction between Les and Stephen but I think it still serves as educational. Les, I would hope that you would not vacate this site due to a bit of wire brush from others. I know your above comments were not addressed to me, but even if they were, we are seeking to find more info and educate all. Besides, I have read your threads and posts both here and at the GMIC, and you have never been accused of lack of strong opinion or lack of spurring thought in us all. And you have never fled from wire brush before, but rather politely stood you ground to argue your points. For the sake of all of us, please allow us the privilege of your 'staunchiness.'

To the forum, I take no offense at anyone here. This thread serves to educate in an area on PlM minis and stick pins--a subject that has not been thoroughly discussed to date. And to our esteemed members that possess important bits or even voumes of knowledge (even if they differ in their conclusions), not sharing them hurts us all and hurts the hobby. Thanks for being honest in these posts. Please keep examples, pics and comments coming so that we may cover the topic well. As most folks are more likely to happen to afford a mini vice a full-size PlM, it serves the forum well to discuss it. Thanks, Steve

And on that note, here is a recent eBay offering that, though wildly odd and initially discounted, seems to be possible given the catalogue pages shown earlier in this thread. Is it? Steve

[Brian S]

I know what you mean about this PlM on a medal bar! I've never seen one from a provenanced source but the catalogue proves the existence. Is this one of them, rather doubtful just 'cause... But that would be VERY COOL to see one, real and provenanced!!! Les, come on... And, I know about ageing a piece and I know what is and isn't aged artificially. There are limits to fakery and honest old age just has its own look, feel and smell. And Stephen's entitled to his personality, regardless of his having written a book or not... As for the stickpin, wish I had one to examine in hand.

[streptile]

For anyone who believes these tiny 9mm PLM minis are authentic period pieces, there's one for sale for €100 (!) on Hüsken (here).

[gregM]

I'll pass

[streptile]

Obviously me too...

[Zepenthusiast]

It, no need to pardon the epxression, has a certain "charm" , but probably too small for XRF!

[Bob Hritz]

Here is an example 20.65mm. Any ideas on this?

Bob Hritz

[Zepenthusiast]

Hi Bob,

Any chance you can get it in a bit better focus? Would like to get a better look at the eagles' heads in particular...


Jim

[Bob Hritz]

Better photos

[gregM]

I am no expert here BUT I do not think the quality of this
piece is what one would expect in a period original.

[Bob Hritz]

This is a smaller cross mounted for button hole.

Bob Hritz

[gregM]

Hi Bob,
I know that the 15mm Godets like the one you posted are pretty rough
but I would think that a 20mm mini would have better details.

Of coarse my opinion is just that---an opinion. I do not own one
to give you a first hand comparison.

[Zepenthusiast]

Hi Bob,

I've been wondering (and you probably know I'm a bit of a wonderer) about the "parentage" of this type of mini (the 20.65 mm one--thanks for the better pictures, by the way!). A multitude of similar-looking minis show up routinely on eBay.de, all of them seeming to have malformed or truncated-looking heads on the eagles, for the most part more so than the one you've posted. Given there does not appear to be a known "Wagner" mini, I've mused about the possibility the "type" is the result of multiple copies/castings-from-copies, etc. from some original version that was legit, but now essentially lost to memory or unrecognized. Some aspects of these suggest an element of true quality that seemed at odds with the finish in other respects, and in making copies of copies it might make sense the eagles' heads (and then wings, and so on) would suffer the most. Much of that thinking, however, was kept open by never having actually been able to make out the finer details of one, in the available pictures.

With the clear shots you posted, for the very limited worth of my opinion, I would have to agree with Greg that the approach to detail is not typical of Imperial work. In particular, the eagles' feet don't sit right by comparison to anything else I've ever looked at, by any manufacturer. It is a silly little item to be picky about, but if you look at the Godet you posted subsequently, there is an effort to suggest the curve of a foot--an artistry at work--whereas the unknown mini shows what is in essence a kind of stick-figure triangle. Likewise, no sweep to the tail feathers--just linear vanes. It is very tiny in the grand scheme of things, and so one needs to cut slack for that, but the finish of the lettering and the enamel is likewise substantially weaker than even a coarser version of a Godet...

Two bits from me!

[Bob Hritz]

Thank you all very much for your help with these minis.

Bob Hritz