Fake WWI EKs?

[Brian R]

What is the feeling on fake WWI EKS on the forum? Is there nearly as much risk involved when buying WWI Iron Crosses as buying WWII EKs? I've basically become afraid to buy any 1939 EKs from anyone except for a couple of credible dealers out there. However, I still feel somewhat safe buying 1914 Iron Crosses- both 1 and 2 Klasse. How does everyone feel about this? Have 1914 EK 1 Klasse's been repoduced to a substantial extent? I can't see that too many 2nd klasse crosses have been reproduced - even though other cheap medals have been such as the 1939 War Merit Medal. What do you folks think about all this?

Brian

[eindecker]

As my limited knowledge dictates I hve to say that ther just isn't the money in it to justify an expensive EK1 or 2. When I started this hobby 3 years ago an EK2 went for $45-75 now they can be had @ Niemans site for 19-25. EK1' sare also falling below 100- (I remeber the 180- KO now I have an 80- version on the wall) Most of the fakes that I see are blatent - I have yet to come across a 3 piece EK2 1914. An 1870 would justify by cost but then again all of the fakes are one piece variety. The 1813 are the ones to watch as I have seen many a 1914 been ground down to resemble the specimine (if the iron core is cracked that helps to identify it as period but not always ) If you want an 1813 go to a dealer you trust. It is realy a matter of economy. Coming on to the market this fall are going to be Imperial Grand Crosses of the various versions - They are going to have silver construction and an iron core and can be purchaced for around 200- USD. As an actual GC would be in the 250K rang and the 100 or so Godet copies go for 10K or less some times it goes to show how demand creates fakes. I started with Ek1914's and once you have an original you can't go wrong after that. Examine and study - the best remedy
C Duncan

[Tom Y]

From my own experience '14 EK's are a fairly safe bet. Any fakes I've seen have been really obvious cheap repros. The possible fake in my collection is a proper cross, but I have some doubts about the clamshell conversion.

[Doug See]

It depends on what you consider "fake". I believe that 1914's were made up through WWII and maybe later. The market for veterans' replacement pieces was there probably through the 1980's, and there are no laws prohibiting the display of 1914 symbolism (unlike swasticas), so I wouldn't be surprised if they were made up until then. I have one piece cased EK1 that may be a modern (1950's?) reissue. It is plated, has some age, but just does not have the quality the older ones had. It's not a new-made copy, though. Those are just my undocumented thoughts......

[Rick Research]

Brian--WWI EKs are USUALLY no problem. If you notice variations that look cheap, have rims that are made out of alloy and not silver, those are usually Third Reich wearing duplicates, as has been mentioned above, and in other topics in this forum. Always take a magnifying glass with you and check out marks. Not that no marks are bad, or that any mark = "good," but Third Reich marks are almost always numbers, whereas Imperial era marks tend to be the maker firm's initial(s). These aren't rare, so just take your time and don't impulse buy unless the iece is really inexpensive enough to chance it. 1914 EKs of 2nd or 1st classes should normally not be a problem the way Third Reich repros are. Rick

[Tom Y]

Doug, we're getting into semantics here, but I consider any piece made to be worn by the recipient real. Yes, there were '14 EK's made up until at least the late 50's. See my answer to alfcollector for a description of the differences between periods. Detail of the core doesn't tell you much. I have late production EK's as crisp as the best war production and war production ones with poor definition. Hopefully I'll have the time soon to get some good scans online.

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

I'll limit my comments to the 1914EK1. I know that there are reproduction 1914EKs being made for collectors because I've seen several being sold as such through eBay by small-time dealers/collectors in Germany. They are well made but the hinge/pin/catch assemblies do not look like WW1, inter-war, WW2 or 1957 re-issues. As I've never bought one, I can't comment on their measurements or whether they are magnetic.

One type is currently available on eBay (Item#1122374960) - I think this might be one-piece construction. Another type (which I've also seen sold as original) has a wide tapering pin with strong bevelling on the topside of the pin (hinge end) - this same type has been reproduced with 1939 (swastika) centres so I have to assume that this type is of 3-piece construction. I am also very wary of Clamshell Screwbacks as I recall seeing a whole box of these at a show 10-15 years ago (both 1914 and 1939 varieties were present - they seemed to be very susceptible to rust).

Repro 1914EK1s are not really that common but a certain degree of caution still needs to be used. Two final comments, most of these recent repros are unmarked and I'm happy calling them repros because I can't see many WW1 German veterans requiring them these days!

Regards
Mike K

PS: I can't post images at the moment but I should be able to forward an image of the bevelled pin variety to anyone interested or for someone else to post.

PPS: I just found this on eBay, a fair imitation of a KO First Class. The link is;

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI...tem=1125096479

[This message has been edited by Mike K (edited March 21, 2001).]

[Doug See]

Mike, I agree with your comments. I think the EK1 (KO) you reference on eBay is an original, but the core has been rusted, then heavily cleaned and repainted. I could be wrong, but the rest of the silver and the catch looks very good.

[Mike Kenny]

Hi Doug,

I think you might be right on that KO I referenced above - I hadn't considered the possibility of a rusted core with refinished paint job. I saw the shocking detail on the central core, what looked like pockmarking too, and poor detail on the beading. The fat hinge on the reverse and heavy makers mark threw me - both of my examples have slimmer hingeblocks and more lightly stamped marks. I stand corrected and thanks for making me look a bit more closely at it (I still wouldn't consider buying it though!).

Regards
Mike K

[Chris Hensley]

They certainly went overboard with the paint didn't they - you can hardly make out the crown.
I'd rather pay a bit extra and get a better example - Detlev has a beauty for $120.

[jeff mcculloh]

check out "soldat".com. There are two different types of EK1 copies on this site, Anyone seen the backs of these? Also he now does Freikorps stuff and even the Eiserne Halbmond.
Sigh../
Jemc

[Doug See]

The soldat.com site is "interesting". I doubt any of their stuff would pass as original to a knowledgeable collector, but with a little aging (notice the medals also come "oxidized"!?!?), they might fool some. Wish they wouldn't sell this crap.. By the way, some of the "Nazi's" in the photo on their home page look as if they've been fed on bratwurst, beer, and Big Macs, rather than field rations. There seem to be about as many fat Nazi's in WWII reenacting as there are chubby Rebels in Civil War farb fests. (I know that's a cold shot. I am not a lightweight either, but gee whiz, if you want to look like Sergeant Schultz, stay home inside or on TV)

[DaveL]

Come on, Doug, those guys can always reenact as clerks & cooks, etc. Even the W-SS had to have those! :->

[Bill M]

--The photo of the obverse is not as clear as it could be, but that crown and those dates are definitely poorly formed.
--When photographing an Iron Cross, the lighting can make a big difference and I believe this cross' core isn't quite as shiny as it appears. Too much light on the beading makes the detail there look, well, less detailed than it might actually be.
--EK's aren't easy to photograph, they don't come off well unless you take the time to use a tripod, a decent camera and good lighting.
--I don't think it was repainted, just a crappy photo of an original, but crappy, cross.

[Brian R]

Eidecker mentions above that EK prices seem to be going down. With all do respect, I don't think that is necessarily true. Although I've heard many great things about him and the items he has for sale are really nice, the gentleman from derrittermeister sells some pretty expensive stuff. I'm not going to judge the real obscure stuff like any of his 1813 EKs etc. but his 1914 EKs seem to be the most expensive around. Although some of the EKs on ebay go for ridiculous prices like a Godet 1914 EK 1 that went for over $300 a few weeks ago, there seem to be some nice deals if you keep looking. I've bought three nice EK 1s over the last 4 months on ebay for reasonable prices and I've been quite pleased. I orignally posted the question about the possibilities of fake WWI Eks because I wanted to see if the "if it's seems to good to be true, it probably is" saying applies for WWI awards as much as it does for WWII awards on ebay. What do guys think?