1870 EK2 on eStand!

[stogieman]

Don't know if anybody noticed but there's a superb 1870 EK2 in Prinzen=Größe formsat on the eStand/Imperial Table right now! Probably ca. 1900 or so, but still has a wide frame/stepped core! Nice piece!

[Biro]

This may not be a popular post and I'm a little reluctant to raise this point at the risk of affecting the sale of what may well be a totally genuine piece offered on the e-stand, but nevertheless, I think it only fair to ask how anyone would distinguish the difference between the e-stand piece and the ones below.... a genuine question, because I now shy away from any prinzen pieces with this very distinctive small type of crown.

Personally, I value Niemanns 'fake of the week' web page enormously, but I do wish he'd clarify if he makes a distinction between 'not of the period' (e.g an 1870 piece made ca. 1900) and an 'outright fake'.

Usually, his wording is a little vague but in both cases below, I saved not only the images but also his verbage that accompanied it wherein he states quite clearly...

"...From my point of view these 2 IC's are post war made top quality copies to deceive the collector. This item is not for sale from us and for collectors information only..."

You'll notice the reverses detail of both era's pictured below are identical - suspicious in my opinion - and the top right hand edge of the frame of both the e-stand offering and the Detlev fake slope down to the right in the same fashion. In my opinion, although in different condition, they are a match.

Please also note that the 1870 prinzen image is cropped from a much larger picture showing a case of multiple fakes which I have edited and put in individual folders for there respective classes... hence it has a 'cut and paste' appearance. This is for my own benefit, and I still retain the original full unedited Niemann picture which I'm happy to post should anyone have any issues.

So where are we with these prinzens??

regards

Marshall

[Biro]

1914 EK2 prinzen 'fake of the week'....

[stogieman]

I think...

... if you look very closely at Mike's cross and Detlev's fake you will see distinct differences. Anybody have the ability to merge them for comparison? I'm in my office and can't do it right now. I would also ask Mike for clearer pictures of his. There's differences, although you will have to study the pictures carefully to find them.

[Mike Pinkus]

ok...found this thread...
this cross is out of a 50 year collection that i have been buying all year...imo definately a legit piece...very detailed and fine quality...the pics on the estand do not do it justice...very crisp......here are some better pics hopefully...i am buying from the wido whose husband was in deutchalnd in the 50's and met many former German vets and was befriended by them...some of the stuff i come out with in the next few monthes will blow you away....
but enough said here are some more pics...
if this fake was produced in the 50s then so be it...but my guess is that detlevs fake was produced after that and this piece was owned 50 years ago...
mike

[Mike Pinkus]

2

[Tiger 1]

Mike,

With due respect, I find the stepped core on any 1870 and later prinzen or standard size EK to be suspect. In the past several years there has been a rash of these stepped core prinzens that appeared on the market. I have seen numerous examples of each date, 1813, 1870 and 1914, available at shows on a table of the cave dweller from Arizona as well as elsewhere. Besides the stepped core they all had the exact same crown and oakleaf sprig details as well as being of the same relative age and quality(?) of construction.

Genuine prinzen EKs are scarce to rare depending on the vintage. It used to be a treat to see an example at a show. Now a days there seems to be multiple choices at almost every show.

Just my opinion.

Tony

[Daniel Murphy]

I just purchased a 1813 Prinzengrosse 2nd class at the Max. While speaking with Stephen Previtera (while buying Prussian Blue), I showed it to him and he said it was a good one and "it was made closer to 1870, you know." This did not bother me as I knew this one had been made later in the period of wear. As you can see, it has the same type of details on the reverse.
Dan Murphy

[Daniel Murphy]

And the obverse, I believe that it is not unusual that a manufacturer of these that had been in business for many years would use the same reverse design on all of the 1813, 1870,and 1914 PG's that they made. Since these were expected to be purchased by officers, royalty etc. some higher quality touches like a stepped center on them is common. Of course, it would be easy for someone to buy an original, disect it and fake them. So a collector contemplating the purchase of one of these should look for real (not artificial) patina, normal wear to the right areas , etc.
Dan Murphy

[Bob Hritz]

I know this is authentic. It was purchased in 1977, from a veteran's estate, in Iowa.


The cast iron center is not stepped. It is blackened, not painted. There is wear to the blackening, from banging around in a box of other militaria brought back from Germany.

Bob Hritz
ps: sorry for the poor pics, but it is cloudy today.

[Bob Hritz]

The blackening is worn off portions of the well detailed crown, making it look distorted.


Bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

Verso. Sorry for the poor photos.


Bob Hritz

[Tiger 1]

[QUOTE=Daniel Murphy]And the obverse, I believe that it is not unusual that a manufacturer of these that had been in business for many years would use the same reverse design on all of the 1813, 1870,and 1914 PG's that they made. Since these were expected to be purchased by officers, royalty etc. some higher quality touches like a stepped center on them is common. Dan Murphy

Dan,

If you study EK reverses you will see that the design of the oakleaf sprig generally evolved to a much more refined state in the 1870 , 1870 Jubilee and the 1914 era examples. As have the assembly techniques for the frame to core fit. The elimination of the stepped core on later era EKIIs, starting with the 1870s, made for a much more refined and visually pleasing cross.

Your statement begs some questions.

Which company made the same product for 100 years without refinement?

Even an old line company such as Godet evolved the design of their EK core design from 1870 to 1914. I can't say for sure about 1813 EKs as period originals are not marked with a mm to my knowledge.

Secondly, what would be the higher quality touches of a stepped core?

The fitting of the frame to a stepped core has always been an iffy proposition at best. The stepped cores were rarely centered and the frames rarely fit snuggly to the core. The need for the stepped core versus a flat core went by the wayside with better assembly techiques that were developed over time. One just needs to compare the fit of the crosses shown here in this thread. The visual differences in regards to the finished product is readily apparent. The stepped core does not offer much of a 'quality' touch IMO. A futher quick search of previous threads on forum about 1870 EKs should verify this.

Tony

[Marc Garlasco]

Here are mine to be added to the discussion. Notice the oaks are also prinzen size. This 1813 was also looked at by Stephen - note the leafs on the 1813:

[epsomgreen]

With due respect, I find the stepped core on any 1870 and later prinzen or standard size EK to be suspect.

I share this opinion. I have stepped core 1870 and 1914 Prinzens which I purchased from a German seller a few years back and have concluded both are questionable.

However, I purchased this Prinzen last year at the November Mohawk Arms auction. It does not have a stepped core and the level of detail puts those stepped pieces to shame.





The Prinzen with its bigger brother:



Regards,

Charles