Grand Cross Question

[Marc Garlasco]

How many 1870 Grand Crosses were unit awarded?
Marc

[Tiger 1]

I don't ever recall hearing or reading anything about Grand Crosses being awarded to units. My understanding is that the Grand Cross was awarded to individuals who had a major bearing on the favorable outcome of a battle, campaign or a war.

As a sidebar.........

During the First World War the submarine U-9 was awarded the honor of displaying the Iron Cross on it's conning tower in recognition of the audacious accomplishment of it's captian. Lt z. See Weddigen while in command of the U-9 sank three British armored cruisers in one day. This pre-eminent accomplishment early in WWI thrust the potential of the U-boat to the forefront of naval thinking at that time.

Maybe someone else has more to add.

Tony

[Marc Garlasco]

Here is why I ask. I got the following e-mail feom a friend and it sounded like one of those stories you hear when someone wants to sell something. So I thought I would ask if this might be true. I was told the cross pictured is the "sister" to my friend's cross and he has yet to photograph it. I will post it when I get it:

awarded to one of the Guards regiments for distinction in the Franco-Prussian War (the only other time GKs were awarded to anyone but top commanders), and hung in the Potsdam Garrison Church (where Hitler met Hindenburg in 1933) on a streamer from whichever regiment's banner it belonged to (all the Guards regt's were garrisoned at Potsdam, so all of their banners hung together at the church). The church was destroyed during a raid in '45 (Brits, I think), and a Wehrmacht soldier picked the GK out of the rubble while searching for survivors in the aftermath. He survived the war, but was trapped in East Germany for the rest of his life; he died some years ago, and his son sold the medal to Weitze. Unfortunately, they didn't know what regiment the medal belonged to (probably had already fallen off the banner when he picked it up), so it's anyone's guess; several of the Garde regiments at Potsdam were awarded the GK, so it'll probably be impossible to ever determine.

[Darrell]

I read through the Iron Time and there's no mention of a Unit Award. Very interesting.

[Marc Garlasco]

Page 124 of Iron Time. So I need to find out if his has a loop on top...

[Darrell]

Page 124 of Iron Time. So I need to find out if his has a loop on top...

I've gone back and reread pages 121-126 and I cant find any reference to a Unit award of the GC Marc. Or are you referring to something else?

[Marc Garlasco]

Page 124 - read the photo caption.

[Marc Garlasco]

From my friend:

my GK is not like the ones in the Iron Time (if that's what you're referring to); it's on a suspension loop, but one that is perpendicular to the front of the cross (as if you took the loop on your KC and twisted it 180 degrees). Through that loop, a ring is attached, which in turn a ribbon is passed thru, though the 'ribbon' is actually a long streamer with a hole at the opposite end where it attaches to the flag. Thus, the GK hangs at the end of a long streamer from the flag; the streamer is actually a length of Iron Cross [black-white] ribbon...likely EK II width, from the looks of it.

[Darrell]

Page 124 - read the photo caption.

Ahhh ... ok (didnt read the picture caption ) ... I was thinking along the lines of a Unit was awarded the GC much like "malta" was awarded the George Cross.

Interesting.

[Darrell]

From my friend:

my GK is not like the ones in the Iron Time (if that's what you're referring to); it's on a suspension loop, but one that is perpendicular to the front of the cross (as if you took the loop on your KC and twisted it 180 degrees). Through that loop, a ring is attached, which in turn a ribbon is passed thru, though the 'ribbon' is actually a long streamer with a hole at the opposite end where it attaches to the flag. Thus, the GK hangs at the end of a long streamer from the flag; the streamer is actually a length of Iron Cross [black-white] ribbon...likely EK II width, from the looks of it.

Does he have any measurements Marc? This is getting very interesting indeed

[Marc Garlasco]

I am asking

[Eric Stahlhut]

Are you sure it isn't a regular-sized EK fitted out for a flagpole(with the perpendicular ribbon ring)? I have one of those (albeit 1914 era). Made by Wagner & S. There was a thread on it a while back. The pics seem to have evaporated, but you can still get the gist from the text.

Odd EK2 Conversion

[W McSwiggan]

Another Possibility?

Much as it is customary for the Cathedral Church of a Roman Catholic Cardinal to hang a red hat to signify that a formar prelate was enthroned there (not signifying that the cathedral was a cardinal) - could this alleged grand cross be intended to signify that a former member or chef of the regiment was a Grand Cross recipient?

I have read a fair amount about the history of the Iron Cross in numerous sources and this is the absolute first time I've ever heard of a "Unit Award". Frankly, I find the concept - while possible - to be exceedingly unlikely. I would think that if a unit were deserving of special recognition that a repeat of the award of the Pour le Merite would be much more likely. Hamelman discusses such an award to the gunboat S.M.S. Iltis on 27 January 1903.

[Marc Garlasco]

58mm, 34.3g

[Marc Garlasco]

From Hermann Historica, Auction 47, lot 713...check out the picture in the online catalog...


A finial with an Iron Cross 1870 for the 1870/71 Campaign
Brass, with well preserved gilding on the laurel wreath, but only remnants of the gilding elsewhere. Fourfold rivetet Grand Cross of the Iron Cross with nickel-silver edges and (subsequently?) lacquered iron center. Height: 24 cm. This finial was issued on 16 June 1871, in conformance to an order of that date issued by Army HQ to those units "whose standards and banners were under fire and who have not yet received the iron cross...".