Two Stahlhelmbund badges, real or fake?

[jabnus]

Took some digging to find but it was worth it:

[jabnus]

Close up of the poster with the part concerning the Treptow badge.

Also a stamp with the name: Rudolf Kübsch



The second photo is a comparrison of both the orignal one fromt eh poster and the fake from this thread. the evidence is clear. The poster clearly states the badge should be with "Seidenband Garnierung" (= on Silk ribbon) and also "Am band Hangend" (=on a ribbon).

The fake badge is obviously in one part and had no ribbon. also the leaves on the Original are stlyished open on the sides and only painted on the fake. The pin is as we saw on the previous page on all fake badges totally different from original pins as can be seen on the poster.

[jabnus]

Bannerweihe des Jugendvereins Eintracht Scheppach:

[jabnus]

S.S Werbetag Braunlage


Very importantly we know now that the badges shown on the original poster must have been made, but that the ones shown in this thread are all fakes. The colors, material used and the shape of the pins are the easiest clues. If an orgiinal surfaces it will probably be easy to recognise, as compared to these fakes they will have totally different characteristics.


This SS badge is advertised on the poster as being: "Stark glatt ausgestanzte Papp-festabzeichen" (=Very smooth punched out cardboard festabzeichen), it is obvious the fakes are not very smooth but similar crude looking as the previous badges.

[wilhelm Saris]

Great Gaston,

it is obvious the fakers have used the board you show with some little differences.
Isn't it often done as such with many TR items: a slight variation, but fake anyway!

Thanks,
wim

[jabnus]

And here are four more that were shown too in this topic. As can be seen are all modelled after original designs, but with some altered a bit to make them look more spectacular. The Gaufahrt Bezirk 8 Mylau for example, has suddenly an early style eagle added. Unfortunately my poster only has a few examples but there must be many more that are listed perhaps in old catalogs. The fakers appear to have gotten their hands on such a catalog and started reproducing these badges. Interesting to note too is that on the fakes are on several badges on the surface at the place where the attachment device is connected already areas painted (see SA sportfest Bonn, Aufmarsch der Hitlerjugend Freiberg, et cetera), on original badges this is not the matter.Glady so these are not high end fakes as we see in some medals. All these are easy to recognise. I hope this is enough empiral evidence to show that the badges that started this topic can not anymore be seen as real by thinking as in the old days. Having a old style eagle or SHB printed logo, or an obscure event on the surface et cetera, are NOT good characteristics that make a badge real. Evidence is everything and glady so we have the forum for this to educate eachother. I thank Pete and Wim for pointing in the right direction.

Yesterday on ebay the same member who is advertising on delcampe and who has over 2700 (!) ratings (99% prositive!) on ebay alone, sold another SHB Treptow badge for 26,49 euro and another SHB Flugtag Ehrenfriedersdorf for 13,50 euro, there sure is a lot of money going on regarding these badges and this is definately not peanuts as some people think!

Caveat Emptor! We now know the characteristics of the fakes and these wont hopefully not fool anyone anymore.


best regards,
Gaston

[jabnus]

Great Gaston,

it is obvious the fakers have used the board you show with some little differences.
Isn't it often done as such with many TR items: a slight variation, but fake anyway!

Thanks,
wim

Hi Wim,

Yes the fakers must have acces to a source close to my poster. Perhaps a catalog of some sorts, but not a full colour source. We know from Pete's pictures that for example the Zeppelin Landung Chemnitz badges or the NSDAP Grenzland Treffen Sebaltz exist (i type these names on purpose as hopefully they will helpfull show up in a future google search) and those are not on my poster, so it must be another source.

Seeing how easy these badges are to reproduce the fakers also definately had no acces to originals and hence many details (the colours mainly!) are wrong. This is of course a good thing for us!

best regards,
Gaston



Edit: the Grenzland badge is also pictured on the poster, see post #32 picture one. Im getting tired!

[wilhelm Saris]

and........... have a look at the safety-pins: they are modern ones with the fakes. The poster gives the pins as in use in those days. They are practically as with other old catalogues!

[der-hase-fee]

Close up of the poster with the part concerning the Treptow badge.

Also a stamp with the name: Rudolf Kübsch

The second photo is a comparrison of both the orignal one fromt eh poster and the fake from this thread. the evidence is clear. The poster clearly states the badge should be with "Seidenband Garnierung" (= on Silk ribbon) and also "Am band Hangend" (=on a ribbon).

You may have jumped to a conclusion here ahead of yourself.

There were 2 variations of these pins, "Serie I" and "Serie II". "Serie II" features the ribbon, while "Serie I" does not. Could the Treptow tinnie being discussed be one of variation "Serie I", with both having been made ?

[jabnus]

Hi Andreas,

Yes i had been reading that too and first was confused by it, but...all badges have a number on the poster:

The Treptow badge is number 687/B, while the part you refer to concerns number 372/U (Bezirks Feuerwehr Tag Meerane), that could be delivered without ribbon decoration (Nr. 372/U wird auch OHNE Bandverzierung geliefert).


Regarding the different series I, II and II , i'll try and make better photo's of those specific area's on the poster. I hadn't seen the poster in a long time and when i finally refound it it was night and by nightlight with a lamp the photo's are not exactly the best. The parts about the series are mainly about the executions in colours and prices for amounts ordered.


In my opinion badge number 687 from series I (so NOT badge 687/B!) is only from serie I and is as can be seen WITHOUT the extra ribbon that was according to the poster only available from series II. Number 687 from series I clearly shows there is no ribbon available and thus also not in cardboard as the badge that started this topic shows! So the only possible extra is a silk ribbon on an Original and not a cardboard extra as on the fake. Besides this there are of course all the other characteristics that are off.


best regards,
Gaston

[kyles bullets]

Your assessment is not logical. For one thing, they simply look right for the period: printing, color, typeface, graphics etc.

But, the main point is; who would reproduce these given how little monetary value they have? You might get 5-10 Euros each for them, if you're lucky. There were dozens if not hundreds of these local event pins produced for the Stahlhelm. Likely, every town and village Stahlhelm group had something like this produced, at least once if not many times. Given the longevity and size of the Stahlhelm, documenting all of them would be a big task and likely not worth it.

I'm with Wilhelm Saris on this one.

Well everything is faked. Stuff worth $10 is now being faked so everything is faked....

[der-hase-fee]

Hi Andreas,

Yes i had been reading that too and first was confused by it, but...all badges have a number on the poster:

The Treptow badge is number 687/B, while the part you refer to concerns number 372/U (Bezirks Feuerwehr Tag Meerane), that could be delivered without ribbon decoration (Nr. 372/U wird auch OHNE Bandverzierung geliefert).


Regarding the different series I, II and II , i'll try and make better photo's of those specific area's on the poster. I hadn't seen the poster in a long time and when i finally refound it it was night and by nightlight with a lamp the photo's are not exactly the best. The parts about the series are mainly about the executions in colours and prices for amounts ordered.


In my opinion badge number 687 from series I (so NOT badge 687/B!) is only from serie I and is as can be seen WITHOUT the extra ribbon that was according to the poster only available from series II. Number 687 from series I clearly shows there is no ribbon available and thus also not in cardboard as the badge that started this topic shows! So the only possible extra is a silk ribbon on an Original and not a cardboard extra as on the fake. Besides this there are of course all the other characteristics that are off.


best regards,
Gaston

I agree, Gaston. I was referring only to the header next to "Serie II": "dto. auch mit Seidenband-Garnierung.", missing the tinnie numbered 687 (same shape as 687/B, but different printing and no ribbon).

[Jo Rivett]

As far as I'm concerned, these are 100% ok.
The amount of work involved in producing these would not be worth faking given what they're worth on the market.

Interesting assumption, i`ll try and follow up on this below..

It looks as if someone has got this catalogue and is using scans to fabricate badges.

In order to support this assumption, you need to have a basis to work from. For example, you need to be able to distinuish between post war printed festabzeichen vs. period produced. Printing quality, as well as the actual material used. I dont see modern laserjet quality here, or any other warning bell that would instantly lead me to agree with your assumption at all. So i am left asking myself, how have you arrived at your claim? Without any "meat" it`s a personal opinion and gut ist! But maybe you could be right? there is one way to find out if you are though

You may have jumped to a conclusion here ahead of yourself.

Yes, i am afraid it looks that way.
__________________________________________________ ______________________
I have one of these, and a few other older 0815 ones from circa 1920-1940. The 1932 Standarte 157 badge. Which has already been pictured on this thread, as well as a period image. In a Tieste book there is another version, almost identical, but from 1933. - Never mind Tieste though, because he has sold fakes before on his site. But in any case, all the attachments that you guys have "problems" with, are also shown in the Tieste books, and of course found on period festabzeichen as well.

The attachments.
Back to the first 2 quotes. "using scans to fabricate..." and "..not worth faking.."
Everything is worth faking. And a small piece of card, or pappe if you will, would be the simplest thing to recreate, would it not? You could print out huge sheets, and then just stamp-out the shapes, affix a modern attachment and sit back & wait for the dollars to roll in.
The Problem.
Where are you going to get these attachments from? You could, if you had the necessary machines needed to create these, just make them, and either marry the attachment with a new needle bar, OR, and this is what i would do, marry the new printed fakes with period attachments taken from pre-33 badges that have no value, or very little value.
Another scenario would be if you "found" or "had" a box load of old attachments. That has surely happened before with other items after the war, marrying, mixing or parts..... etc.

So it is "possible" i guess. The attachment of this particular badge (the 157 Standarte) that most are calling fake here, i would not agree with. But thats just me, so i put it under the scope, and vied every micro-mm of it in detail, and can only reach the conclusion that it is anything but modern! Forensics dont lie, BUT, as i said, it could be a period attachment that some clown switched, or a period attachment found in a box, storage container, or one that dropped out of a JU88 that has been circling the earth since 1945 looking for a safe place to land!

The Pappe & the Ink
I naturally subjected the pappe to the same Spanish-inquisition that i did with the attachment. And the results are:

•The base material used, shows the exact same characteristics and structure as other festabzeichen made between 1920-1945.
•There is not a single micro-millimeter of the badge itself, that points to either a modern day manufacturing (printing) method, or any part of the base material that even hints that it is made "differently" to any other festabzeichen of that period.

So, the attachment is a period and common one, (and definitely not modern)
The base material used (pappe) is exactly the same in it`s composition as other period German festabzeichen
The printing, was done in exactly the same manner as other period German festabzeichen.

So i take my knowledge as a screen printer, my knowledge of forensics, or looking for specific traits under extreme magnification, as well as my knowledge about attachments, and if i was to agree with you all here, that they are fake, i would have no other option other that to suggest:

They were obviously printed on period pappe, using the same printing method, more likely than not by the same people or company who actually made these kinds of festabzeichen, and then adorned with a period attachment.

Quite absurd really, UNLESS, you want to put these into the category of a "series of fakes/fantasy badges, made directly after the war, by the original company.
A possibility i guess, yet due to their nature - pappe-boring, not really an immediate post war fakers choice, and also not a fake item we see in the early fakers catalogs, i would not really agree with.

(The term "they" is used liberally in this post, but i am only referring to the 157 Standarte diamond shaped badge. I have no examples of the other, colorful ones)

I am all for exposing fakes, in fact i am quite possibly the largest skeptic out there. (or denouncer of post war rubbish) Even when it comes to badges i own myself as will shortly become clear with an extremely good fake of the Deutsche Christen badge. But in order to be sure that a fake, is a fake, evidence is needed. And with this 157 standarte badge, all the evidence points towards nothing else than a period produced item. If you offered me money to show you one single trait under extreme magnification, that "could" point towards it being a fake, i could not.

As far as the other SA badges, and those with colorful bells and whistles, i wouldn't know. Other than to say i have no problem with any of the presented attachments at all.

[Jo Rivett]

And here are lastly a few from my own collection. Look at the angles the pins are bend, the fakes try to resemble this but are much wider, also look at the way the original pins are bend to hold the attachment connected to the badge....

OK, i have been trying to figure out exactly what the "concern" is with the attachments, because this thread is a little hard to read at a glance, but i think i have it now.

Gaston, you are using one example, of a festabzeichen nadel, and trying to compare it to others, without acknowledging that there were plenty of different attachments. In fact the very attachments that you are saying are fake here, are pictured in period catalogs, and advertisements by attachment makers!!

And you have also ignored the fact that quite likely, there was not just one maker of a certain badge, but many. Especially large orders would have been shared around, and depending on what areas they were needed in, would most likely have been made by many makers, not just one. So i dont see any "Law" that just because a badge is found pictured in a period source, that automatically means that every badge encountered of that type MUST look identical otherwise it is a fake? in fact i can prove that this is not the case with many different badges if need be.

Here is an image ►CLICK◄ which i think is your concern? next to an image of a 1925 festabzeichen, showing the exact same "wide" needle, with no "bend" to hang the badge.

I had my eye on this now for about 2 years at eBay. It is still there, but about €300.- to expensive for my liking.

But like i said, i am referring ONLY to the diamond 157 Standarte papp badge here, i have no idea about the SA ones.

[jabnus]

Hi Jo,


Very glad you joined this topic too. Im a bit in a hurry now and will get back to this later today, but you are right that there are many things being discussed and running through eachother at once. It suppose the topic will get some more posts to adress all points then

We know from the poster the badges with the strange almost fluorescent colors are not phantasy badges, but originally did exist. The poster shows this and im sure period catalogs must exist in which probably the same badges (and more) are shown. Unfortunately i don't have those catalogs. I know you have much more paperwork than me, if you have the time, can you maybe look them up? This explains however, at least the existence of your 1932 Standarte 157 badge. Can you maybe post a picture of yours? Im hoping to see at least a little difference here compared to the ones i think are fake. You know im interested in the forensics part and am very suprised by your reply. I can't answer yet why the result is positive on your test (im hoping because your badge is an original).

Last for now, the picture regarding the pin bent under a certain angle which i think is fake. (i post it under here if you dont mind as thats easier than clicking). I compared more than only the four originals i posted on the previous page, many more paper tinnies in all sorts and shapes can be found and as far as i have seen (sure i don't know every tinnie ever made, as does probably no one) all originals have not such wide bent pins. The pin on the 50 Jährige Jubel-Feier you compare to the Standrate 157 badge has a pin that is originally not that wide, i think it is "damaged" and thus looks so wide now too. Look at the closing part, it can barely hold the pin closed and looks as if it is "folded open"? I still think the fakes have more wide bent pins.


More in a few hours when im back home. Particularly also on the attachment devices.

best regards,
Gaston