Two Stahlhelmbund badges, real or fake?

[jabnus]

No, it's because i saw the seller has 4 of these paper tinnies all in great mint condition (no age damage at all), and because i found at the same time another for sale also mint and of the five above shown badges that suddenly show up, four of them in three different designs (three different daybadges) have the exact same pin and all no patination and no age damage. Also all the colours look the same and quite new and i find it strange that none of these are shown in Tieste as Pete said. I have over 2000 tinnies and know Tieste is by far not complete (i made it a game to overbid him in the past at auctions), but if none of these are shown and are yet suddenly available that says something to me yes. Appearantly i collect different than people here.


If i may further say so, i don't post much in the freikorps section but this topic sure doesn't make it more inviting to do so. I've been collecting Stahlhelmbund for quite some years now and normally buy any tinnie i don't have of the SHB. Yes i find it strange to see now within two days time two of the Treptow badges and three i didn't know in a similar style as written above. Not impossible, but enough to raise another red flag for me. I suppose the same seller having a similar paper SS badge for only 25 euro is another clue, but who am i? Almost everyone in this topic seems to know everything better and thinks they are original, and when i dig deeper and type my findings (after first starting a topic in this forumsection in the hope to learn more from fellow collectors in the first place) i get first a reply from someone that they want to hear what Wim Saris has to say about my comments (as if i wouldn't be able to ask him myself by mail if i wanted to and like i did in the past), and now a rolleyes smiley from you with a sarcastic reply? And you are the same person who kept asking everyone since the existence of this forumsection to post more of their items?


I think i leave it to the regular sections i normally post in (political) and let the people in this section live in their own elitist world. The tinnies are up for grabs, good luck collecting and building your knowledge database, if this is the level of maturity in this section that says a lot! As i've shown more of these tinnies are around and if this is the way people are investigating them we will see many more fakes pop up as the fakers will earn easy a lot of cash. No one responded with any evidence, no search for similar badges, no one has one in their collection, not one shown in any book, not even an attempt by someone more experienced if the days the badges were supposedly handed out for ever occured. Hey, but who am i? If anyone here likes them so much, do a googlesearch or pm me, they are around and i gladly give everyone the links so you can spill your money. I rather try to collect originals myself and try to first research before spending cash.





Gaston

[Sergeant 08]

No, it's because i saw the seller has 4 of these paper tinnies all in great mint condition (no age damage at all), and because i found at the same time another for sale also mint and of the five above shown badges that suddenly show up, four of them in three different designs (three different daybadges) have the exact same pin and all no patination and no age damage. Also all the colours look the same and quite new and i find it strange that none of these are shown in Tieste as Pete said. I have over 2000 tinnies and know Tieste is by far not complete (i made it a game to overbid him in the past at auctions), but if none of these are shown and are yet suddenly available that says something to me yes. Appearantly i collect different than people here.


If i may further say so, i don't post much in the freikorps section but this topic sure doesn't make it more inviting to do so. I've been collecting Stahlhelmbund for quite some years now and normally buy any tinnie i don't have of the SHB. Yes i find it strange to see now within two days time two of the Treptow badges and three i didn't know in a similar style as written above. Not impossible, but enough to raise another red flag for me. I suppose the same seller having a similar paper SS badge for only 25 euro is another clue, but who am i? Almost everyone in this topic seems to know everything better and thinks they are original, and when i dig deeper and type my findings (after first starting a topic in this forumsection in the hope to learn more from fellow collectors in the first place) i get first a reply from someone that they want to hear what Wim Saris has to say about my comments (as if i wouldn't be able to ask him myself by mail if i wanted to and like i did in the past), and now a rolleyes smiley from you with a sarcastic reply? And you are the same person who kept asking everyone since the existence of this forumsection to post more of their items?


I think i leave it to the regular sections i normally post in (political) and let the people in this section live in their own elitist world. The tinnies are up for grabs, good luck collecting and building your knowledge database, if this is the level of maturity in this section that says a lot! As i've shown more of these tinnies are around and if this is the way people are investigating them we will see many more fakes pop up as the fakers will earn easy a lot of cash. No one responded with any evidence, no search for similar badges, no one has one in their collection, not one shown in any book, not even an attempt by someone more experienced if the days the badges were supposedly handed out for ever occured. Hey, but who am i? If anyone here likes them so much, do a googlesearch or pm me, they are around and i gladly give everyone the links so you can spill your money. I rather try to collect originals myself and try to first research before spending cash.





Gaston

Collecting seems to me, is the main interest in your life, isn't it? But it is only a hobby.

If you are not interested in opinions of collectors here, please don't post more themes.

[Brian L.]

jabnus

If you don't like them, the logical thing to do is post empirical evidence to back up what you are saying.

Show original examples and compare them to these to show the discrepancies.

Just saying you don't like something without giving too much in the way of evidence means nothing.

Also referring to a specific reference book, however good, as if it's a bible is not always the wisest thing. The best references sometimes get it wrong. One should use multiple sources if trying to prove something.

You're not infallible, just because you've been collecting Stahlhelm for a long time.

I've collected Freikorps since 1969 and yet, I still sometimes make mistakes.

[jabnus]

Collecting seems to me, is the main interest in your life, isn't it? But it is only a hobby.

If you are not interested in opinions of collectors here, please don't post more themes.

Well this is really funny! You have almost four times as much posts as me, so it appears that this is a nice example of the pot calling the kettle black.

If you read carefully and don't immediatly reply sarcastically you can see i opened this topic in the first place to ask for opinions of other collectors and that my first post was one in which, and because i doubted the originality. A number of people, among whom you yourself, is fast to respond that they think paper tinnies are worthless or that there were many low level events at the time (i don't deny this), but that that is why they think they must be original. I strongly concur here. Not because i have as you say no interest in collectors here, i do and that is why i opened this topic, but because since the topic started i posted new evidence and so far besides Pete seem to be the only one that sees that. Again i say: you are always the one asking for more activity here, but if you reply in this sarcastic manner why would people even take the time to respond anymore?



@bolewts58: for you the same as the previous poster: please try to read first and then reply. I am trying to find evidence and have already posted a great number of issues with the badges shown. why don't repsond to that instead of this last reply that is totally unnecessary? Instead of talking about the things i bring up as concerns, you make the same rude replies as Sergeant08. You too seem to be one of the the biggest "experts" here as you reply on almost every topic made and thats why i made this topic too: in the hope that someone here could add more information or evidence. I have asked if someone could tell and maybe show if there are orignals of these badges or if they are plain fakes. This appears to be not of importance here.

The remark that im not infallible and about reference books being the bible is really stupid, i am definately not infallible nor have i ever claimed so and am also the one saying that it means nothing if the badges aren't in Tieste, but that that is also another clue that should raise some red flags.

This whole topic is about me asking and trying to find more information. Yet, the sarcastic remarks continue and the both of you rather attack personnally instead of trying to contribute anything of value.

Collecting for me is a hobby yes, my hobby is to learn a thing or two on the items i find interesting, it appears however that some people with much more posts and who call that out are themselves not quite interested in other peoples opinions or efforts to learn more about the items this section is (or should be!) about.

[Brian L.]

I don't think either of us was rude. But, in fact, I think you seem to be overly sensitive.

You asked for opinions. I expressed an opinion early on that I considered them real, as did Wilhelm (THE EXPERT) as did Sergeant 08. Yet when you got opinions that differed from yours, you became dismissive.

If anyone is being rude, it is you.

[jabnus]

Thank you, while typing the replies with points why i think they are bad, i get since post #13 no response besides sarcasm. Me being rude? i must have been sarcastic myself then without knowing


All joking aside, im far from uninterested or dismissive but yes i am disappointed by the sound of the replies here. It's not that you have different opinions, but it's the sarcasm and elitist way of responding. Even worse is that no one seems to know anything yet people still make replies that they think the badges are good. Based on what exactly?

As much as i respect Wim i think he is human and makes mistakes too and he is very likely wrong here.


I don't want to repeat the same thngs and spam this whole topic but have found now two sellers that sell these paper badges and both sell the others (in my opinion) fake badges as well. There is a pattern here with fake badges and the more you look the more you see that something is fishy.

[Brian L.]

Then stick with your opinion, since you seem to be convinced of it.

I expressed specifics such as printing, typography, type of color, that they look "right", and the fact that these are not worth faking in my opinion. I base my opinion on knowledge of printing techniques of the period, not the specific badges. Obviously, this is somewhat subjective.

I haven't collected Stahlhelm for some time. My specialty is Freikorps. So, as a long time collector, you obviously are more of an expert.

The other person who would know about these is Destruction. Perhaps if he sees this, he'll comment. Send him a PM and maybe he can help.

In the couple of years I've been on this forum, I've never seen a disagreement such as has escalated here. This forum has always been very welcoming and open to both experienced and new collectors. I don't think anyone would ever use the word elitist for anyone here.

So, I would say that you're the one getting hot and bothered; not anyone else.

[Wood]

As I said mate, post them on the tinnies forum. They are more in tune with such things there.
Pete

[jabnus]

Hi Pete, i already made a new topic on the SS badge in the SS section, but if needed i'll post a link to this topic in the tinnies section too.

now, im terrible with photoshopping images, but tried to make a few comparisson shots to point out my points of concern.

First two pictures:

- The first is by a seller on delcampe, he has three badges at once for sale, which is on itself suspecting, all three have as you can see similar characteristics.

- The second picture is from a seller on Hood.de, he has four badges for sale at once, i think all four are bad. Please look at them and compare them to known originals im going to post in the next posts.

[jabnus]

These i recieved from Pete, all appear to be from the same "series".

Look at the angle the pins are bend, all these badges appear to have these same pins.

All badges are on brownish looking paper and with strange looking colors (which i haven't encountered on originals as far as i know)

[jabnus]

And here are lastly a few from my own collection. Look at the angles the pins are bend, the fakes try to resemble this but are much wider, also look at the way the original pins are bend to hold the attachment connected to the badge, look at the attachments themself (much more straight), also the colors and damage is different. Some of the fake badges seem to have a little damage to the sides of the paper (on purpose to make them look older?), but non on the obverses, originals do have this, they were used and after that stored for decades.

[Dmv]

another worthless post LOL

I pick up Stahlhelm items whenever I can.
My opinion is worth nothing too you guys without evidence, but I'm with Jabnus and don't like the pins started this thread, for same reasons as his.

p.s. Wilhelm is quoted as "the expert", which he is on regulations and historical facts, however he doesn't collect, so on items that's another question...

[wilhelm Saris]

Due to an exhibition I hardly had time for a good look for the event badges. I had again a look and I am quite surprised to see with practically all the same attachment, which is quite remarkable. I have copied them and I will send them to my mentor. As he does not have Internet it can take a while before I will get an answer. As it is a photograph it further is difficult to tell, as one needs to feel them in the hand! At the moment I have not a 100% answer!

Due to the shown attachments for the pin I am having some doubts now as they look indeed quite new. Very often there is a small rope or a very cheap and simple safety-pin/needle (not even the metal strip is included). Some concerns used this simple safety-pin system. Fahnen-Fleck used all kinds of different attachments with metal strips, as the shown badges have. And guys these event badges were cheap as hell.

To quote from one of the cataloques (Vaterländischer Fahnenfabrik):
festivity and commemorative event-badges from strong cardboard in black or colored for all kinds of unions, organizations or professions. 2,000 did cost either 2.25 or 2,60, depending on one color or 2 or 3 colors. Thinner cardboard badges did cost 1.05 (5000) when the safety-pin was a loose one (lose beigelegter Einstecknadel) or 1.65 (5000) when the safety-pin was attached to the badge (mit befestigter Sicherheitsnadel).
When one would order 200, 500 or 1,000 the prices were higher.

Dmv: I do not collect anymore that's right, but I started collecting in 1969 with TR items. Material as shown was hardly for sale in the seventies. None of the shown badges I have ever seen in a newspaper. But remind the quantity of newspapers.

I have send jabnus a private message. I can send him two pages from a Fahnen-Fleck cataloque, which shows the attachments in different forms. I can't add photos and images.

[jabnus]

Here's two pictures Wim just sent, credits for both go to W.Saris/J.Rivett

A quick peak reveals that the pins and attachment devices between the pins and the badges, are different from the fakes that started this topic. Im going to type a longer reply later tonight or tomorrow, these pictures from Wim remind me of a poster i have which also shows these badges. Im going to try and dig it up, with a little luck i have it here at home and not in the attic at my parents in law.

best regards,
Gaston

[Wood]

It looks as if someone has got this catalogue and is using scans to fabricate badges.
1st, picture, the badge at top left is the same shape of one of the ones Jabnus posted, even to the faux ribbon between the badge and the pin (which I believe on the original was a real ribbon), even the dots as shown on the ribbon in the catalogue to show a different colour are reproduced.
With the SS one, the circle around the runes isn't round and the badge isn't oval.
Pete